Conversation with #inferno at Sat Jan 31 23:34:24 2009 on powerman-asdf@irc.freenode.net (irc)
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(14:58:27) cane9: hi
(14:58:53) cane9: anyone has a tip as to why inferno would hang and not start on linux-2.6.28.1?
(14:59:01) cane9: it works fine on my 2.6.24 kernel
(14:59:59) cane9: and i pretty much just did a make oldconfig for the new kernel
(15:33:26) gualteri: take a look at previous post: http://archive.netbsd.se/search.php?q=emu+hangs&ml=Inferno-discussion
(15:35:44) cane9: i'll try, and thanks
(15:35:56) cane9: gualteri, by the way, is the nintendo an arm device?
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(16:04:11) soul9: gualteri: kudos, works fine
(16:11:43) gualteri: great
(16:12:21) gualteri: about the nintendo ds yep it's really an arm^2: arm7+arm9
(16:16:28) soul9: i see
(16:26:13) gualteri: there're more details in the infds.pdf paper at http://code.google.com/p/inferno-ds/
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(18:26:29) gualteri: anybody familiar with audio/dsp?, i'm building sine waves with different frequencies to generate different tones
(18:55:27) uriel: i think caerwyn knows about that stuff, he was working on some inferno synth projects
(18:56:15) anothy_x: IIRC, brucee was doing something related, too, although that was a few years back now.
(18:58:40) uriel: ah, good point
(18:58:47) uriel: no, that was last year
(18:58:53) uriel: he did some really cool fpga stuff
(18:59:02) uriel: his paper to this year iwp9 was related to it 
(18:59:06) uriel: (although somewhat tangentially)
(18:59:18) uriel: he has a googlegroup about it, let me find it
(19:00:10) uriel: here: http://groups.google.com/group/casella
(19:51:10) gualteri: thanks, casella's group has some '
(19:51:42) gualteri: Fun learning stuff'
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(00:29:38) anothy_x: uriel: around?
(00:39:49) uriel: yes
(00:41:03) uriel: anothy_x: btw, is there a way to make du or equivalent put a / behind directories?
(00:41:36) uriel: ah, got an idea, ls -F `{du |awk '{print $2}'}
(00:43:16) anothy_x: i kinda thought cross' walk had that option, but i can't find the source and it doesn't have a usage message.
(00:43:25) anothy_x: oh, right: source on sources.
(00:43:48) uriel: yea, i like cross' walk, but I'm trying to stick to standard plan9/p9p stuff
(00:43:52) anothy_x: nope, i'm wrong, no such option.
(00:44:12) anothy_x: anyway: is the format you needed just YYYY-MM-DDTHH:MM:SS?
(00:45:30) uriel: yes, I think it is that
(00:45:38) uriel: did you get sqweek's code?
(00:45:55) anothy_x: no, i missed that.
(00:47:18) uriel: bleh
(00:47:32) uriel: http://sqweek.dnsdojo.org/hg/8601 
(00:48:13) anothy_x: ah.
(00:48:16) uriel: what I need is something like 2009-02-05 22:42:51+00:00
(00:48:20) uriel: s/ /T/
(00:48:30) uriel: but the timezone crap probably can be faked
(00:48:57) uriel: (if you get me the rest, I will just append +00:00 to make the xml standard retards happy, and that is it)
(00:49:02) anothy_x: i spent about half an hour on it shortly after we talked, then had to run. came back to it this morning and remembered i hate doing C when i don't have to, and i don't have to. so i wrote datefmt.b.
(00:49:20) uriel: heh
(00:50:03) uriel: bleh, I'm thinking cross's walk would make my life so much easier...
(00:50:14) uriel: maybe should try to persuade russ to get it into p9p
(00:50:47) anothy_x: you'd probably have to get dan to say that's okay (although i doubt that'd be hard; he's a very reasonable guy)
(00:59:20) uriel: yea, he has publicly said multiple times that I'm a moron, so I guess I trust his judgement quite a bit
(01:05:43) anothy_x: heh. oh, well. maybe i'll ask him; we get along well.
(01:07:50) anothy_x: you really want that offset in MM:SS, not SSSS?
(01:14:45) anothy_x: geez, they do. bugger.
(01:17:31) anothy_x: well, anyway, if you want it with lots of things but not (yet? maybe eventually) that -HH:MM stupidity, see /n/sources/contrib/anothy/src/cmd/datefmt.b
(01:18:00) anothy_x: you might particularly like 'datefmt %α'
(01:18:50) anothy_x: i added most of the options from the unix man pages i saw, although i didn't bother with the ones which were blank-padded instead of zero-padded.
(01:20:36) uriel: awesome thanks, in limbo it is really of no use for what I need, but thanks anyway
(01:21:10) uriel: the -HH:MM thing is probably best ignored IMHO, people that don't use UTC should go to hell
(01:21:48) uriel: (there are few things more frustrating than all this sites that let you 'configure' your timezeone, which in the end just messes up things even more)
(01:22:00) uriel: and god forgive that you travel, because then nothing ever makes any sense
(01:22:15) anothy_x: i originally wanted this in C, since the project i wanted it for doesn't otherwise require inferno.
(01:22:27) anothy_x: but it's *so* much easier in limbo.
(01:22:41) uriel: yea, I don't blame you
(01:23:11) anothy_x: hey, i'll post my half-hour C version. it almost works, but doesn't (probably an uninitialized var somewhere or some such, but rewriting it from scratch was easier than bug hunting).
(01:23:46) uriel: well, I haven't tried sqeeks code yet, for now I'm using gnu date, hah
(01:23:54) anothy_x: ugh.
(01:24:08) uriel: still trying to figure out how will I add C code to werc
(01:24:21) uriel: want to at least keep it optional
(01:25:09) uriel: I wonder if a patch to date(1) for an -r flag to print the date in rfc-3339 would be accepted
(01:25:29) anothy_x: by whom?
(01:25:49) uriel: russ and whoever the hell is supposed to take care of the bell labs tree
(01:26:03) anothy_x: unlikely. date there has only ever done one format.
(01:26:16) anothy_x: i suspect you'll have better luck with a separate tool, like datefmt.
(01:27:42) uriel: I don't find date's format particularly useful
(01:28:03) uriel: a datefmt might be useful, but that would imply much more functionality
(01:28:07) anothy_x: me neither.
(01:28:21) anothy_x: hah, i just looked at my datefmt.c to copy it up, and i think i found the bug.
(01:28:32) uriel: if date's output was more reasonable, the need for datefmt would be reduced considerably
(01:28:39) anothy_x: hold on, gimme a minute...
(01:28:46) anothy_x: but "reasonable" will never be reasonable for everyone.
(01:29:03) uriel: sure, but it is not part of the unix way to try to be everything to everyone
(01:29:39) uriel: I just think rfc3339 (ignoring the timezone nonsense) is a better compromise than the current date format
(01:30:11) uriel: of course, changing the date format would be too radical, that is why I thought perhaps an -r option could be a good compromise..
(01:30:13) anothy_x: better in most ways. easier for machines, harder for people.
(01:30:41) anothy_x: hah. now i think it works (although it's *very* lightly tested).
(01:30:42) uriel: I dont' know, I read better YYYY/MM/DD, but I guess it is matter of taste and what one is used to
(01:30:53) anothy_x: see datefmt.c in the same place, although it doesn't have as many options.
(01:31:05) uriel: cool, thanks
(01:31:09) uriel: well, I need zero options :)
(01:31:21) anothy_x: well, by "options" i mean "understood formats".
(01:31:36) anothy_x: you'll need some of those. although i think, except for time zone stuff, you should be there.
(01:31:48) uriel: (another thing that has always bothered me is that parsing the dates ls -l outputs is totally impossible, even being a human I never know what damned year they refer to)
(01:32:02) anothy_x: :; ./datefmt '%Y-%m-%dT%H:%M:%S'
(01:32:03) anothy_x: 2009-02-05T18:32:20:; 
(01:32:15) anothy_x: yeah, i agree about ls -l.
(01:32:19) uriel: oh, wow, that is real fancy
(01:32:38) anothy_x: yeah. i've wanted bits and pieces enough times that i figured i'd go all out.
(01:32:45) anothy_x: the limbo one does even more.
(01:33:23) uriel: YmdHMS is probably all I will ever need, so I'm quite happy
(01:33:46) anothy_x: but i put the alpha in the limbo one in just for you! ;-)
(01:34:03) uriel: alpha?
(01:35:01) anothy_x: "./datefmt %α" gives you the format you want, minus the -HH:MM.
(01:35:13) anothy_x: (in the limbo version only)
(01:38:47) anothy_x: damnit, i had to see that bug, didn't i? now there goes my justification for installing inferno.
(01:38:58) anothy_x: oh, well, i'll have to settle for p9p for now (which we're already using)
(01:39:38) uriel: p9p is good
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(01:50:47) uriel: now, what I would *really* like to know is how to parse xml from rc
(01:51:32) uriel: (want to implement the iditoic AtomPub protocol, and there seems to be no way around the xml crap)
(02:01:40) anothy_x: gotta run. i tweaked datefmt.c; see if you can figure out what i'm doing wrong with the literals. i think it's obvious, but i keep typing limbo at 8c and it doesn't like that too much.
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(13:32:05) olegfink: http://labs.opera.com/news/2009/02/05/
(13:32:34) olegfink: i'd like to see some figures by those guys on stack vs. register VM performance
(13:37:33) mjl-: yeah, read that too yesterday.  pretty nice to see they are actually saying something interesting there
(13:41:57) olegfink: i wonder if their vm will be accessible from the web side -- with vm performance and javascript-like browser api it certainly beats java/flash/whatever. and why not compile limbo or whatever into their bytecode? :-)
(13:43:23) mjl-: i read some of their other pages too.  i saw their canvas, the html5 js libdraw
(13:43:36) mjl-: guess that will beat flash for most people indeed
(13:43:47) mjl-: i'm still wondering whether i should read up a bit on javascript
(13:44:00) mjl-: to see how it would work as general purpose scripting language...
(13:44:12) mjl-: compiling limbo to it would be funny
(13:44:30) anothy_olpc: compiling limbo into their bytecode is only marginally interesting without the rest of the inferno environment.
(13:44:35) mjl-: and then ask them to implement e.g. $Sys and a few other built-in modules, and the programs will run as normal!
(13:45:17) anothy_olpc: you'd need a whole filesystem, or to specially tell your programs how to find one.
(13:46:02) anothy_olpc: it's not just $Sys. all your devices aren't implemented in the language, they're in the rest of the system.
(13:46:21) mjl-: true
(13:46:24) anothy_olpc: that's the key difference between inferno/limbo and java
(13:46:35) anothy_olpc: (well, aside from the competency of the authors)
(13:46:39) mjl-: ;)
(13:51:30) olegfink: well, I doubt opera would provide a complete inferno environment, but the ability to compile one's favourite languages into its vm still looks interesting to me
(13:54:08) mjl-: olegfink: you might want to look at one of the other js engines available nowadays
(13:54:17) mjl-: i bet at least firefox/mozilla's enging is open source
(13:54:48) mjl-: and then there is chrome's v8, and webkits engine.  i bet they also use some (register-based) vm.
(13:54:57) mjl-: they all use jits afaik
(14:12:54) olegfink: well, what's left is standartizing the vms
(14:13:17) olegfink: same thing that happened to JScript/Javascript awhile back and resulted in ECMAScript
(14:20:21) mjl-: are all implementations really ecmascript?  no add-ons, extensions and what not?
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(14:20:55) mjl-: i don't think they (js implementation writers) care too much about the vm instructions... they just want to run javascript
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(19:01:27) mennis: anyone know of a module capable of reading Libpcap files?
(19:12:20) mjl-: nopes
(19:12:33) mjl-: i don't think pcap is a very complicated format though, so shouldn't be hard to write
(19:23:34) mennis: Yeah I am looking at it now.  It looks easy enough but I may prove to be too much of a noob to do it right.
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(02:22:49) olegfink: hehe, if anyone here is able to read russian or google translate's output, http://www.dz.ru/solutions/phantom might be an interesting reading
(02:24:13) olegfink: bottom line: they describe an operating system design suspiciously similar to inferno plus some of the more difficult things everyone would like to be implemented, like permanent state saving (snapshots). they claim to have it already going.
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(18:47:58) C-Keen: re.
(18:48:19) uriel: hey C-Keen 
(18:48:22) C-Keen: could someone here kindly bring my memory up to speed please: how do I build inferno from within itself again?
(18:48:33) C-Keen: hey uriel 
(18:48:34) uriel: no clue
(18:48:57) C-Keen: also has anyone in here tried to run inferno natively on mips64?
(18:48:59) C-Keen: ;)
(18:49:08) ***C-Keen is getting funny ideas
(18:49:33) ***uriel doubts
(18:49:42) olegfink: C-Keen: if you give me a mips kernel, I'll be first in line.
(18:49:54) uriel: but who knows, maybe charless has inferno running on mips64 hidden somewhere..
(18:50:14) C-Keen: olegfink: well there should be a mips kernel
(18:50:20) olegfink: 'should'?
(18:50:28) C-Keen: olegfink: it would need some tweaking to run in 64 bits
(18:50:44) olegfink: so there is a 32-bit mips kernel?
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(18:50:51) uriel: I know brucee had inferno on the ps2, which is mips (not sure if it is mips64)
(18:51:01) olegfink: it's actually mips128
(18:51:58) olegfink: er, no, seems it's 64bit
(18:52:00) C-Keen: olegfink: by reading through archives I got that hint. Also there is a mips target for mk...
(18:52:14) C-Keen: but I guess that is just for emu
(18:52:23) ***olegfink wonders where he got that funny idea that ps2's mips was 128bit
(18:53:07) olegfink: but still, I think using something like u-boot makes more sense :-)
(18:53:58) C-Keen: olegfink: I own a yeeloong netbook now from lemote which uses PMON as bios, that would be an interesting target
(18:54:28) olegfink: wait, where did you get one?
(18:54:40) uriel: olegfink: I think the vector units probably are 128bit
(18:54:48) uriel: (but I know nothing about that stuff)
(18:56:00) olegfink: hm, I know nothing about PMON
(18:56:22) C-Keen: olegfink: directly ordered it from lemote
(18:57:59) olegfink: oh, didn't know they sell directly. what price? I'd definitely get one... or two.
(18:58:51) olegfink: u-boot is pretty much of an OS kernel. it has syscalls and whatnot (well, "not" being e.g. process scheduling, but that can be done at bytecode level, methinks)
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(19:00:12) C-Keen: olegfink: including import taxes mine came to ~300EUR
(19:02:14) olegfink: C-Keen: what can you say about it? I think I'm mostly interested in ergonomics, because everything else is pretty much determined by specs...
(19:04:19) C-Keen: the keyboard is a bit weird, wireless has some issues (it is connected via usb internally)
(19:04:46) C-Keen: and atm the powermanagement is disabled by default, but it works AFAICs when enabled. 
(19:04:59) C-Keen: it ships with a debian mipsel
(19:09:41) olegfink: aha, much weirder than some pop-netbook like acer or asus?
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