Conversation with #inferno at Fri Feb 20 18:17:51 2009 on powerman-asdf@irc.freenode.net (irc) (20:07:36) gualteri [n=salva@84.123.158.129.dyn.user.ono.com] entered the room. (22:12:11) newmanbe [n=btdn@138.74.131.25] entered the room. (23:13:41) jmpnz [n=mennis@oconeecase.pfnathens.com] entered the room. (23:16:10) jmpnz_ [n=mennis@adsl-068-016-104-079.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] entered the room. (23:16:30) gualteri left the room (quit: "Leaving."). (23:17:38) mennis left the room (quit: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). (23:33:15) jmpnz left the room (quit: Connection timed out). (00:59:50) jmpnz_ left the room (quit: Client Quit). (02:52:08) powerman: hmm... interesting (02:52:40) powerman: approx. 4096 first spawn's eat 400KB main memory (02:52:55) powerman: and it looks like memory leak (02:54:14) powerman: i.e. if you spawn some no-op function like "init(...){spawn noop();} noop{}" emu will leak about 100 bytes of "main" memory (02:54:42) powerman: if you spawn about 4000 of them - emu will leak about 400KB of main memory (02:55:08) powerman: but at this point it stop leaking memory and next spawn's doesn't affect memory usage (02:55:54) powerman: maybe it's some internal hashes (per pid, for example) increasing? (03:09:13) KillerX [n=anant@gentoo/developer/KillerX] entered the room. (03:33:31) powerman: As example, using standard tools, you can run `listen -A 'tcp!*!1234' {date&}`, then in another terminal run `while nc localhost 1234; do :; done`, and monitor "main" memory usage in emu - it will grow by ~400KB and then stop growing. (03:34:18) powerman: If listen's param will be {date} instead of {date&} - no memory grow happens at all (03:48:18) anothy_x: i believe (but am not sure) that it's allocating internal procs (emu kprocs?) in a pool, and they get reused once a pool size is reached. (03:48:30) anothy_x: not entirely clear on that, though; it'd be nice to get a more authoritative answer. (03:48:44) anothy_x: ask on inferno-list, and either charles or rog are likely to know. (04:42:23) powerman: anothy_x: actually I found this while trying to check my app for memory leaks (04:42:50) powerman: ps doesn't show heap usage, so I tried to find other sources of information (04:45:06) powerman: file /dev/memory show heap info, but while checking it I discovered that grow of main memory (04:45:35) powerman: now it looks like this grow has nothing with my app and it just some normal emu behaviour (04:45:55) powerman: so, the question is still actual: how to check my app for memory leaks? (05:08:23) newmanbe left the room (quit: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). (05:08:48) newmanbe [n=btdn@138.74.131.25] entered the room. (05:54:29) underspecified left the room (quit: ). (06:03:08) newmanbe left the room (quit: "Leaving"). (06:27:56) hotaru2k3 [n=hotaru@cpe-24-29-193-226.neo.res.rr.com] entered the room. (06:47:33) KillerX left the room (quit: ). (08:13:07) hotaru2k3 left the room (quit: "ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.1b2/20081201080242]"). (08:43:01) underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] entered the room. (18:59:45) npe [n=npe@p2245-ipbf09wakayama.wakayama.ocn.ne.jp] entered the room. (20:37:04) powerman: any ideas how to fix this: mnt: proc released 30208: mismatch from #|/data1 #M rep 0x1a1c0858 tag 2 fid 60 T124 R121 rp 2? (20:38:06) powerman: it looks like two simultaneous connects to ndb/registry trigger some bug (21:40:36) gualteri [n=salva@84.123.158.129.dyn.user.ono.com] entered the room. (22:11:23) gualteri left the room (quit: "Leaving."). (22:23:22) powerman: ok, it's not just two simult. connections, there are some other requirements to see this bug, but, finally, here it is: http://code.google.com/p/inferno-os/issues/detail?id=162 (22:42:03) powerman: 1. run several applications which: (22:42:03) powerman: 1.1. register non-persist service on remote registry server (22:42:03) powerman: 1.2. start reading from /event (22:42:03) powerman: 3. kill these applications (because of emu-g restart) (22:42:03) powerman: 4. registry server become damaged/unusable and must be restarted (01:23:21) KillerX [n=anant@gentoo/developer/KillerX] entered the room. (03:12:12) powerman: looks like ndb/registry doesn't handle Tflush correctly... (03:13:28) powerman: let me guess... somebody already patched ndb/registry to use styxflush.m but nobody knows where patched version can be found? (04:57:20) npe left the room (quit: Connection timed out). (05:10:24) newmanbe [n=btdn@138.74.131.25] entered the room. (06:08:24) powerman: I've fixed it. patch attached to issue. (06:17:33) newmanbe left the room (quit: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). (06:17:59) newmanbe [n=btdn@138.74.131.25] entered the room. (06:32:23) newmanbe left the room (quit: "Leaving"). (06:54:15) hotaru2k3 [n=hotaru@cpe-24-29-193-226.neo.res.rr.com] entered the room. (09:53:21) te [i=tao@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-32b62dc127cd9917] entered the room. (10:42:27) KillerX left the room (quit: ). (10:43:03) vegai [n=vegai@ap62.adsl.tnnet.fi] entered the room. (13:20:16) hotaru2k3 left the room (quit: "ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.1b2/20081201080242]"). (13:46:19) KillerX [n=anant@gentoo/developer/KillerX] entered the room. (16:51:09) KillerX left the room (quit: ). (17:13:16) underspecified left the room (quit: ). (17:17:44) soul9 left the room (quit: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 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(17:40:29) gualteri left the room (quit: "leaving"). (18:34:40) vegai left the room (quit: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). (18:40:43) powerman: is anybody know why first mount take so long? (18:41:50) powerman: first mount without auth take 0.05-0.07 sec, next mounts without auth take 0.005-0.015 (18:42:24) powerman: first mount with auth take 2.3 sec, next mounts with auth take 0.3 sec (18:44:34) powerman: I've tried to use inferno from bash one-line script to get some info from inferno, and these 2.3 seconds on each emu executions are very noticeable and make it mostly useless this way (19:00:25) powerman: also it's interesting how infpk1 differ from ssl - comparing their security, speed, etc. (19:18:20) KillerX left the room (quit: ). (19:42:15) mennis [n=mennis@adsl-068-016-104-079.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] entered the room. (19:51:35) eno_ is now known as eno (20:13:41) anothy_olpc1 is now known as anothy_olpc (20:15:08) anothy_olpc: i don't know, but i'm curious about that one. my first guess is name resolution (second guess is spinning up the RNG). (20:15:18) anothy_olpc: what's your scenario? (20:38:16) powerman: I've tried to do something like $s=`emu-g sh -c "ndb/cs;mount ...;cat /file"` (20:38:53) powerman: I also think that probably RNG-related delay. (20:40:02) powerman: anyway. it looks like infpk1 in inferno work 2 order of magnitude slower than openssl in linux (20:41:35) powerman: i.e. fetching from localhost using https instead of http add 0.004 sec delay, while adding authentication to mount from localhost add about 0.35 delay (20:43:01) soul9: that's not that much ;-) (20:43:11) powerman: ~100 times (20:43:48) powerman: isn't 100 times and 2 order of magnitude the same thing? or I don't know right English term for this? (20:43:56) soul9: yeah, i was joking (20:44:01) powerman: ohh :) (20:44:11) soul9: i think that's how it's used,yeah (20:45:14) anothy_olpc: are you running interp or compiled? (20:48:54) soul9: btw, anothy, how's the olpc working for ya, anothy? (20:48:59) soul9: lol (20:49:09) soul9: s!, anothy!! (20:51:56) anothy_olpc: okay. (20:52:16) anothy_olpc: i'm fairly frustrated with the project overall: i think Negroponte's ego may have killed it. (20:52:44) anothy_olpc: the hardware's pretty good, overall, especially for the price, but the keyboard remains a challange (although more manageable that i'd expected) (20:52:50) soul9: yeah, it did kind of die down (20:53:00) soul9: yeah? (20:53:13) anothy_olpc: i have a SD card with a fedora install on it that i boot from; that's what i'm typing to you now on. (20:53:17) soul9: so it can be used as a netbook? (20:53:21) soul9: kind of? (20:53:39) anothy_olpc: sugar's good for what it is, but it's not really designed to be "general purpose". (20:53:42) anothy_olpc: oh, sure. (20:53:51) anothy_olpc: all the netbooks pretty much have the same keyboard issue. (20:53:55) soul9: yeah (20:54:15) soul9: but it's nice to be able to carry it in a lunchpack ;-) (20:54:27) soul9: and ssd is nice, can move it while on...etc.. (20:54:45) soul9: plus that little machine is special (20:55:17) anothy_olpc: it is. i like it. (20:55:30) anothy_olpc: i really do wish i could get native plan 9 on it, though. (20:55:48) anothy_olpc: or inferno. (20:56:05) anothy_olpc: but it'd have to have networking, which i think is the big holdup with plan 9 on it. (20:56:15) anothy_olpc: (or was last i checked, and i haven't seen any additional work) (20:58:47) newmanbe [n=btdn@138.74.131.25] entered the room. (21:02:51) powerman: anothy_olpc: both interp and compiled take ~same time (21:03:19) anothy_olpc: that's weird. (00:31:42) KillerX [n=anant@145-116-230-32.uilenstede.casema.nl] entered the room. 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(09:15:33) eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-141-69.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] entered the room. (09:16:55) eno left the room (quit: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). (12:44:30) KillerX [n=anant@gentoo/developer/KillerX] entered the room. (13:04:43) underspecified left the room (quit: ). (13:39:42) gualteri [n=unknown@crespins.disca.upv.es] entered the room. (13:58:24) underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] entered the room. (14:32:36) uriel: anothy_x: sugar is a pile of stinking shit (14:32:53) uriel: they could have used a fourth of the hardware if they had used inferno (14:33:10) uriel: and it would have taken a tenth of the effort to make it usable, but when all you have is monkeys and typewriters.. (14:33:44) uriel: oh, and see this: http://blogs.appropedia.org/2008/12/05/the-world-needs-lean-code/ (14:35:59) anothy_x: sugar's not bad, for what it is, particularly if you focus on the part above the OS (which is where sugar focuses). (14:36:08) anothy_x: got issues, for sure, but not awful. (14:36:19) anothy_x: yes, i'd have rather they used inferno, or plan 9. (14:36:39) anothy_x: but the more telling problem is that they used x86. (14:36:55) anothy_x: given the project goals, i can't come up with any valid reason to do that. (14:37:28) anothy_x: i keep thinking it indicates that Negroponte was thinking about Windows from the very start, but i also keep trying to come up with an alternate explanation. (14:37:33) anothy_x: none has presented itself yet. (14:37:48) anothy_x: okay, showered, now leaving. back on eventually. (14:39:23) uriel: might be that cross-compiling on *nix is a bitch (14:39:59) uriel: and that even on lunix, with all the ports and shit, only the x86 toolchain is really properly exercised (14:40:20) uriel: oh, I know why, the same as everyone else: mozilla (14:40:28) uriel: sugar is built fundamentally on mozilla (14:40:53) uriel: and mozilla hasn't run worth a shit on anything other than x86 (and perhaps ppc) (14:40:57) anothy_x: arm's properly exercised. think about all the mobile devices that use it. very well-supported platform. (14:41:20) uriel: they have been working on their port for handhelds for ages, and it still sucks ass (14:41:21) anothy_x: cross-compiling's a pain to set up, but manageable. and would've been a better trade-off. (14:41:28) anothy_x: okay, leaving. (14:41:37) anothy_x left the room (quit: "Leaving."). (15:33:12) anothy_x [i=none@cpe-76-189-197-62.neo.res.rr.com] entered the room. 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(13:36:07) underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] entered the room. (13:48:52) hotaru2k3 [n=hotaru@cpe-24-29-193-226.neo.res.rr.com] entered the room. (14:29:03) anothy_x left the room (quit: "Leaving."). (14:58:54) hotaru2k3 left the room (quit: "ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.1b2/20081201080242]"). (15:29:00) anothy_x [i=none@cpe-76-189-197-62.neo.res.rr.com] entered the room. (16:33:44) gualteri left the room (quit: "leaving"). (16:47:49) KillerX left the room (quit: ). (16:48:04) KillerX [n=anant@gentoo/developer/KillerX] entered the room. (16:49:53) KillerX left the room (quit: Client Quit). (16:49:59) KillerX [n=anant@gentoo/developer/KillerX] entered the room. (19:56:00) powerman: how to automate remounting of non-idempotent resource? (19:56:19) powerman: mount -P doesn't useful here (19:56:46) uriel: isn't there something like aan for inferno? recover? (19:57:43) powerman: no... (19:58:12) powerman: at least these names not listen in man 1,4 or 8 (19:58:19) powerman: listed (19:59:04) uriel: there is something, but I can't remember the name (19:59:11) powerman: looks like only general way to detect disconnected resource is send requests to it every few seconds. something like readdir(.) (19:59:17) uriel: anothy_x must know, he has much better memory than me : (19:59:18) uriel: :) (19:59:45) uriel: did you check the paper on the topic from the first iwp9? (19:59:58) powerman: about recover? yeah (20:00:16) uriel: I think it mostly covered native plan9 solutions, but it also covered lunix ones for v9fs, so it might have mentioned inferno? (20:01:17) powerman: nope (20:01:48) uriel: bleh, and I guess you searched in the archives? (20:02:15) uriel: list archives, I mean (20:02:30) uriel: also, Octopus might have something... (20:04:28) powerman: not now. several months ago I've checked everything about recover, it was my favourite topic for some time :) (20:05:06) powerman: I sure chances I noticed recover for inferno and ignored it that time was equal to zero. (20:05:47) uriel: ok, the chances of my memory failing me are considerably higher than zero (20:09:28) powerman: Anyway, I don't sure proxying styx and hiding connection issues from clients are safe. If files isn't idempotent, such proxy can reply with error on operations which continue working with files opened in previous connection; but it probably will allow walk and open/create operations without notifying clients about reconnections between these operations. (20:10:13) powerman: If we use something like /net, then there several files with shared state: /net/tcp/0/ctl and /net/tcp/0/data. (20:11:12) powerman: If app opened ctl, then connection was lost/restored, then it opened data - it will be another data, probably related to another network operation done by another app. (20:12:43) powerman: I think it's better to do complete remount in this case. This at least result in closing all fd in all app which working with mounted resource right now, and give them a chance to handle this situation. (20:14:06) uriel: it probably could be done with proxies on both ends, but yea, the simplest solution is probably something else (20:19:43) powerman: I've think about mountmon script/app which will check mount point availability every n sec by doing something like single readdir (without reading until the end) and seek(0) after that, and in case of error will try to remount it with 1 sec delay on mount error. (20:20:17) powerman: This will result in single styx R/T packet exchange. (20:21:32) powerman: But polling every n sec is ugly and non-effective. (20:22:31) powerman: Much better to look for EOF on mount connection. Actually kernel should receive such EOF in most cases, and in other cases it will receive it with enabled 'keepalive'. (20:23:40) powerman: So, my question actually about possibility to handle this EOF in kernel in some way which allow user app to remount detached resource. (20:26:39) powerman: If it's impossible to know when kernel get this EOF on user level and kernel will not take any actions on EOF itself, then better solutions probably will be, yeah, proxying styx, but in very simple was - just wait until any transport-level errors or EOF, close connection and start new process trying to remount resource. (20:26:52) powerman: was->way (20:29:42) powerman: mount {mountmon -A tcp!1.2.3.4!styx /n/remote} /n/remote (20:32:12) powerman: where mountmon will: a) authenticate connection because mount will not do auth because of braces; b) transparently proxy bytestream (doesn't even have to know it's styx) until network error or EOF; c) on error/EOF it will spawn new process "mount {mountmon -A tcp!1.2.3.4!styx /n/remote} /n/remote" (this is why it need mountpoint in 3rd param) and exit. (20:33:40) powerman: that's the best idea I've for now, and I'm not sure there no simplest way to get this feature (02:22:51) underspecified left the room (quit: ). (03:06:49) underspecified [n=eric@isa7-dhcp-116-127.naist.jp] entered the room. (03:50:25) KillerX left the room (quit: ). (04:07:42) uriel: powerman-asdf: did you get my email? (04:12:29) powerman: in inferno maillist? (04:12:41) uriel: yes (04:12:46) uriel: ah, you are awake, cool :) (04:16:39) powerman: as for fonts - i've nothing against taking free fonts from acme-sac. only problem is I don't use acme and because of this doesn't tried acme-sac yet. I use inferno for network services and see no reason why acme-sac is better for me than official svn... (04:17:14) uriel: well, it is just a way to avoid the stupid games with having to download the packages from vn and whatever (04:17:38) uriel: the fonts are just fonts, a replacement for the non-free crap that comes with inferno (04:18:21) uriel: so I just thought that if you are going to get them from somewhere, could as well get them from somewhere that has free fonts and where you can add them to your package rather than having to get every user to pull the fonts from vn (04:19:34) powerman: well, these stupid games a) already done; b) simple; c) doesn't require me to spend time learning acme-sac; d) doesn't introduce additional dependency on another authority (wow, how many smart words used in single sentence! :)) (04:20:10) powerman: ok, I'll look for these fonts, sure (04:20:41) powerman: free is better anyway, less possibility of legal headache (04:22:02) uriel: you don't need to care about acme-sac or introduce another dependency, just take the fonts, and put them in inferno, that is it (04:22:28) uriel: precisely because they are free you can just take them an drop them on inferno (04:22:32) powerman: I know, it was a joke. There smile, if you care. :) (04:23:00) uriel: the problem is that inferno is brain dead and has some hard-coded font settings somewhere, but IIRC that can be fixed with a bunch of binds that map the 'standard' fonts to something else (04:23:26) uriel: ah, sorry, I guess after dealing with people that love to make things as complicated as possible I'm losing my sense of humor :( (04:25:42) powerman: As for separate graphics package - I've some questions. While it's possible to find all apps in /dis/ which require Draw module and move them into separate package, I don't think it save noticeable amount of disk space. Also, if somebody will use rstyx/cpu, then he'll be able to run remove graphical app using wm/wm on his workstation - so these apps still useful even on remote servers. (04:25:43) ***uriel really needs to get around forking inferno and plan9 some day and producing decent usable distributions (04:26:18) uriel: powerman-asdf: yea, you are probably right that it is not worth the trouble to split things up (04:26:48) uriel: nevermind that suggestion, a single package will be simpler and less hassle for users and for you (04:27:04) ***powerman already spend 2.5 years supporting own linux distribution and doesn't wanna have similar headache anymore (04:27:18) uriel: heheh (04:27:41) uriel: well, a good thing with inferno is that nothing changes, so once you are done maybe you need to touch something once every five years ;) (04:27:50) powerman: no way (04:28:26) powerman: if somebody will care about it and support own distribution, chances are he'll receive much more patches and other support requests than he expect (04:29:05) uriel: hehe, that would mean progress, and we don't want that ;) (04:29:15) powerman: sort of :) (04:29:33) powerman: progress mean active development (04:29:47) powerman: which in turn mean lower quality of developer (04:29:57) powerman: (developers) (04:30:12) powerman: which in turn mean moving from state-of-art thing to usual crap (04:50:16) olegfink left the room (quit: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). (04:50:42) olegfink [n=olegfink@62.141.52.142] entered the room. (04:51:46) uriel: heh (04:54:29) uriel: powerman-asdf: btw, have you looked into updating killerx's p9p gentoo package? (04:54:34) uriel: should be rather easy I think (04:56:03) powerman: I don't know about it. And don't use p9p (just have no idea how it can be useful for me). Anyway I can help with package update, if needed. (05:14:14) uriel: that would be nice, I doubt it require much work, not much has changed in p9p since the package was built (probably just replacing the old tarball should be enough) (05:20:46) powerman: It usually enough to rename .ebuild-file, and it automatically do the rest (including downloading fresh tarball). But somebody who using it should test it to make sure it's working ok. (05:21:27) powerman: If there will be somebody who able to test - I can do the rest. (06:03:02) powerman: btw, is there *stable* solution to mount styx in linux? (06:03:55) powerman: I've tried to use drivers in kernel some time ago... I got 2 kernel panic in 10 minutes. (06:04:43) powerman: probably it's worth to note I need to mount from inferno with authorization (06:06:09) powerman: because I suppose even these drivers in kernel works fine with plan 9 without auth (which probably most popular way to use styx and probably most tested) (06:15:55) anothy_x: i don't believe any of the linux mounting methods support inferno auth. (06:16:03) anothy_x: that could be wrong, though; i'd mail ericvh. (06:21:47) uriel: how to do auth from linux kernel drivers seems to be an open problem (06:22:10) uriel: IMHO the best solution is to proxy connections over a local running inferno instance (06:22:26) uriel: powerman-asdf: what kernel version are you using btw? (06:24:04) powerman: right now 2.6.26 with hardened patches (grsecurity/pax). at time I tried to use these drivers it probably was 2.6.25 with hardened patches (06:25:25) powerman: proxy over a local inferno is good if you trust all local users (06:25:50) powerman: otherwise it's bad idea to provide connection to resources without auth even on 127.0.0.1 (06:27:58) powerman: in my situation problem is while servers under my control there few websites with crap php scripts... and I'm pretty sure it's possible to own these user accounts or apache's account on my servers using holes in these scripts. so I prefer to avoid export resources without auth even on 127.0.0.1 (07:48:19) olegfink left the room (quit: Remote closed the connection). (07:49:52) olegfink [n=olegfink@62.141.52.142] entered the room. (07:51:56) olegfink left the room (quit: Operation timed out). (08:00:46) olegfink [n=olegfink@62.141.52.142] entered the room. (08:10:06) underspecified left the room (quit: ). (08:13:51) underspecified [n=eric@isa7-dhcp-116-127.naist.jp] entered the room. (08:26:46) underspecified left the room (quit: ). (08:29:42) underspecified [n=eric@isa7-dhcp-116-127.naist.jp] entered the room. (08:52:59) uriel: 04:19 < powerman-asdf> proxy over a local inferno is good if you trust all local users (08:53:13) uriel: non need for that (08:53:31) uriel: you can use standard file perms to protect the fifo (08:54:45) uriel: as for the kernel, I very much recommend you upgrade, AFAIK v9fs on recent kernels at least is mostly stable and doesn't crash too much (08:57:52) powerman: I don't choose kernel myself, I just use latest 'stable' hardened kernel in Gentoo. Security&reliability for me much more important that everything else. And I've already trying to support things myself (remember these 2.5 years mentioned few hours ago? :)) - now I'm happy to use kernel provided, patched and tested by Gentoo hardened team. I've a lot other work to do. (08:59:03) powerman: As for fifo... I've think about this, but I've some negative experience with fd types other than usual files and tcp/udp sockets in linux. (08:59:23) powerman: They sometimes work in really strange way. (08:59:45) powerman: This especially true when non-blocking I/O used, but anyway... (09:04:03) powerman: oops. 9am. I forget to sleep this night!! my last chance is do it immediately. :) good night. (09:06:22) uriel: non-blocking i/o is evil and wrong (09:06:28) uriel: hehe, good night :) (10:26:25) underspecified left the room (quit: ). (11:16:35) underspecified [n=eric@isa7-dhcp-116-127.naist.jp] entered the room. (12:08:58) megaboz left the room (quit: " Leaving..."). (13:21:40) gualteri [n=unknown@crespins.disca.upv.es] entered the room. (13:45:02) underspecified left the room (quit: ). (14:36:24) KillerX [n=anant@gentoo/developer/KillerX] entered the room. (15:42:44) underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] entered the room. (17:18:06) gualteri left the room (quit: "'bam! bam! bam!. Tu si que sabes monito -- bender'"). (19:25:41) KillerX left the room (quit: ). (23:15:59) uriel: powerman-asdf: btw, maybe you can give me a list of related links to add to the russian edition of 9times? like to your site and that inferno-rus blog and anything else you think it is worth linking to (23:16:24) uriel: (and any blog/feeds you think I should add to http://planet9.cat-v.org ) (23:20:32) powerman: uriel: ok, I'll gather such links and send to you (23:33:45) uriel: awesome (00:31:50) olegfink: there seem to be quite a few russian plan9/inferno users, but there isn't any sort of user group (00:32:44) ***olegfink still wants to do something of the sort at the uni. after all they've got a 'java room'. (00:39:37) _adele_ left the room (quit: Client Quit). (00:39:42) _adele_ [i=erratic@75.146.55.252] entered the room. (00:55:19) anothy_x: "java room"? unless that's where they brew the coffee, ew. (00:55:31) anothy_x: what's that, like the soviet version of the unix room? (01:00:53) olegfink: indeed it is. a bunch of PCs and some people doing nasty things with java. (03:29:18) KillerX [n=anant@gentoo/developer/KillerX] entered the room. (03:59:30) underspecified left the room (quit: ). (04:08:36) KillerX left the room (quit: ). (05:20:59) eno left the room (quit: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). (05:22:44) eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] entered the room. (06:29:20) eno left the room (quit: kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). (06:29:20) jas_ left the room (quit: kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). (06:29:20) MrWGW left the room (quit: kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). (06:29:32) jas_ [n=jas@adsl-69-215-39-41.dsl.chcgil.ameritech.net] entered the room. (06:29:32) MrWGW [n=MrWGW@74.124.206.166] entered the room. (06:30:35) eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] entered the room. (06:34:58) newmanbe left the room (quit: "Leaving"). 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(17:23:15) powerman: uriel: links to russian inferno resources sent to lost.goblin (17:23:48) olegfink: KillerX: hi! i see you've got somewhere with glendix? (17:23:52) powerman: format: russian/markdown (17:23:52) olegfink: powerman-asdf: hello (17:24:04) powerman: olegfink: good morning :) (17:24:18) KillerX: olegfink: yep, we've got a few more new contributors (17:24:28) KillerX: :) (17:25:15) olegfink: nice, seems I really need it now. :-) (17:25:51) uriel: powerman-asdf: nice, thanks! (17:26:46) olegfink: KillerX: will I have any luck with just taking a vanilla kernel and compiling it with glendix patches? (17:27:01) powerman: uriel: please send me the url where you publish these links when they will be online (17:27:16) KillerX: olegfink: we're currently with a regression on kernel version 2.6.24+ (17:27:25) KillerX: olegfink: but patches for versions before that work fine (17:27:43) uriel: powerman-asdf: was thinking of putting them in http://9times.cat-v.org/russian/ (17:27:52) KillerX: set_system_trap_gate, the function that modifies the IDT doesn't work on 2.6.24+ (17:29:03) powerman: uriel: but it's a news page..? or you mean on sidebar, under 'Links:'? (17:29:45) olegfink: oh wow, vxinferno (17:30:05) olegfink: that means that the interop is _safe_? (17:30:08) uriel: powerman-asdf: yes, like in http://9times.cat-v.org now (17:31:39) powerman: uriel: probably somewhere under http://doc.cat-v.org/inferno/ will be ease to find (17:32:11) uriel: powerman-asdf: ah, yes, well, I want to setup an http://inferno.cat-v.org with that kind of things too (17:32:15) powerman: btw, you've a lot of subdomains on cat-v.org, but it's hard to navigate between them (17:32:23) uriel: there is no decent inferno website right now (17:32:52) uriel: powerman-asdf: you are probably right, a few of the major ones are linked from the top, but could be improved, suggestions welcome :) (17:33:29) soul9: possibility to have the top bar list all domains in sitedir? ;-p (17:33:55) uriel: it is trivial to write a script to do that, but it would end up a bit cluttered (17:34:30) uriel: maybe a css-drop-down menu with a list of all domains somewhere in the top bar would work.. (17:38:45) soul9: yea (17:39:00) soul9: or just a page on each domain that links to all available domains (17:40:13) powerman: I don't think such "technical" solutions will be really usable. (17:41:10) powerman: Probably it's better to review all available resources and create some sort of catalog. (17:41:25) powerman: Maybe also restructure something. (17:43:12) uriel: powerman-asdf: organization clearly could use some improvement, but I'm bad at it (17:43:25) powerman: uriel: if you want suggestions - send me list of all available subdomains and you current ideas about overall structure (either current or "nice to have") (17:44:10) uriel: powerman-asdf: cat-v.org has a list of most domains (17:44:53) uriel: (I think only planet9 is missing from that list) (17:45:33) uriel: anyway, don't worry about it now, got lots to do first, need to finish migrating all sub-domains to the latest werc (17:47:02) powerman: uriel: that sounds similar to overall situation in this community: let's do something interesting and don't worry is people will be able to find it :) (17:47:43) soul9: :-D (18:01:46) uriel: powerman-asdf: well, honestly, the goal of cat-v.org is to fight that problem, I know it is far from perfect though (18:59:30) gualteri left the room. (19:24:44) powerman: is there a way in limbo to turn single character (int) into string without creating new variable? (19:25:28) powerman: this one works, but require separate variable "s": c='A'; s : string = nil; s[0] = c; (19:26:22) uriel: print? (19:26:42) ***uriel has forgotten the little limbo he used to know... (19:26:58) uriel: and why is it a problem to use a separate variable? (19:27:48) powerman: ohh, sprint! how I can forget... (19:28:26) powerman: separate variable is overkill in that code :) (21:00:31) KillerX left the room (quit: ). (21:24:00) Fish [n=SPARCman@AVelizy-152-1-3-246.w82-120.abo.wanadoo.fr] entered the room. (21:32:06) newmanbe [n=btdn@138.74.131.25] entered the room. (23:28:02) mennis [n=mennis@adsl-068-016-104-079.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] entered the room. (23:30:39) mennis left the room (quit: Client Quit). (23:47:46) mennis [n=mennis@adsl-068-016-104-079.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] entered the room. (00:12:59) Capso [n=none@about/networking/128.0.0.0/Capso] entered the room. (00:14:25) Capso: powerman-asdf: If the Gentoo Inferno package is built from the Google Code SVN, then it might be worth the effort to include missing fonts. (00:15:45) powerman: Capso: right now there another package available in my overlay which install missing fonts from latest binary inferno distribution available on vn site (00:16:35) Capso: OK, just making you aware of the matter. :0 (00:16:37) Capso: :) * (00:16:55) powerman: and I plan to check acme-sac and include it free fonts into svn inferno package (00:17:28) Capso: Is Acme-SAC only usable on Inferno? (00:17:37) powerman: ? (00:17:38) Capso: I wanted to try it on native Plan 9 (00:18:07) powerman: acme-sac is "inferno inside" afaik :) (00:18:39) Capso: I guess I need to revise what the heck it is to begin with (00:24:29) uriel: Capso: acme-sac *si* inferno (00:24:39) uriel: (as powerman already pointed out, sorry I'm slow) (00:35:36) mennis: One benefit to using acme-sac is that TK doesn't speak scroll wheel. (00:36:34) uriel: one? (00:36:42) uriel: wm is a fucking pathetic joke (00:36:50) uriel: the wm window doesn't even resize (00:37:04) Fish left the room (quit: Remote closed the connection). (00:40:16) mennis: That's right, I had forgotten that. Probably didn't matter in the early set top days, no that would be extremely irritating. (00:41:55) uriel: understatement of the decade (00:42:25) uriel: maybe in twenty years we will implement this *very advanced feature* (00:44:15) mennis: Well as acme-sac illustrates one needn't use the aspects of inferno that are crippled in this manner. (00:47:17) uriel: actually, that problem is not with wm or tk, acme-sac fixes it with a hack (00:47:42) uriel: (to be honest, I have no clue why the problem exists, I think it has to do with allocation of draw memory or some such (00:52:46) mennis left the room (quit: Remote closed the connection). (00:53:02) mennis [n=mennis@adsl-068-016-104-079.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] entered the room. (01:03:12) mennis left the room (quit: Remote closed the connection). (01:03:30) mennis [n=mennis@adsl-068-016-104-079.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] entered the room. (01:25:44) _adele_ left the room (quit: Connection timed out). (01:36:21) mennis left the room (quit: Remote closed the connection). (01:36:37) mennis [n=mennis@adsl-068-016-104-079.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] entered the room. (01:39:21) mennis left the room (quit: Client Quit). (02:17:22) _adele_ [i=erratic@75.146.55.252] entered the room. (02:18:16) ooooo [i=none@201.80.224.34] entered the room. 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(12:05:55) plalonde left the room (quit: Remote closed the connection). (12:43:24) olegfink left the room (quit: Remote closed the connection). (12:51:38) olegfink [n=olegfink@62.141.52.142] entered the room. (14:24:15) andguent [n=andre@p4FF65517.dip.t-dialin.net] entered the room. (14:51:15) KillerX left the room (quit: ). (15:10:11) gualteri left the room (quit: "Leaving."). (16:08:03) Fish left the room (quit: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). (17:17:27) npe [i=npe@dn157-088.naist.jp] entered the room. (18:03:46) KillerX [n=anant@gentoo/developer/KillerX] entered the room. (18:41:19) npe left the room (quit: ). (19:17:37) underspecified left the room (quit: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). (20:24:15) andguent: the tk part of inferno is compiled under the host system and thus not alterable within the inferno environment, am i seeing this right or did i oversee something? (20:34:39) uriel: andguent: it is a 'built in' module, either built into emu or the kernel (20:34:49) uriel: (note that there is not always a 'host system' (20:35:26) uriel: not sure what you mean by 'not alterable within the inferno environment' though (21:20:11) andguent: uriel: like change theming or behaviour of the widgets (21:29:59) anothy_x: the behavior is compiled into inferno, so that's correct (in most senses, anyway). (21:30:08) anothy_x: you do, of course, have the source. (21:30:45) andguent: agreed, thanks (21:30:53) andguent: i just wanted to know if i oversaw something (21:31:28) anothy_x: fyi, you mean "overlooked". (21:31:40) andguent: oh yes (21:31:43) anothy_x: to "oversee" is to supervise. (21:31:46) andguent: sorry, my english is rusty at best (21:31:50) anothy_x: no worries. (21:32:18) anothy_x: i'm willing to bet my whatever-it-is-you-normally-speak is somewhere between very poor and non-existent. (21:32:36) olegfink: anothy_x: oh, thanks! I always wanted to know the difference and somehow managed to forget to look that up :-) (21:32:46) andguent: anothy_x: pardon? (21:33:08) andguent: anothy_x: ah okay (21:33:09) andguent: nvm (21:33:37) andguent: s/my// and your last sentence is pretty disturbing (21:34:07) anothy_x: ah. :-) (21:34:30) anothy_x: no, there's a good chance whatever it is you speak is much better than english. english is an irritating, mutt language. (21:34:34) anothy_x: what is it you normally speak? (21:34:42) andguent: German (21:35:37) anothy_x: well, it's much more regular, anyway. (21:37:06) andguent: no offence but english is the common denominator. that includes all the good and bad consequences (21:38:30) anothy_x: none taken; it's true, sadly. i just wish it had ended up being a language that wasn't such a mess. (23:16:27) olegfink left the room (quit: Remote closed the connection). (23:17:17) olegfink [n=olegfink@62.141.52.142] entered the room. 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I had to upgrade gcc (06:33:42) eekee: ah dang. the menu can't cope with the jittery touchscreen (06:36:02) anothy_x: what pda? (06:37:35) eekee: sharp zaurus sl-c3200 (06:38:32) eekee: hmm can just-about work the menu but this is qemu emulation, the real touchscreen is even more jittery (06:42:39) eekee: it's a start, anyhow ^^; (06:42:46) eekee: lc cc (06:42:57) eekee: oops, looking at the wrong cursor (07:22:08) eekee: will wm/view render images in more than 256 colours? (07:28:41) eno left the room (quit: Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). (07:32:01) eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] entered the room. (07:33:45) newmanbe left the room (quit: "Leaving"). (08:01:20) uriel: eno: native? (08:01:30) uriel: ah, no, if you are using gcc clearly not native (08:01:55) uriel: eekee: can you take a picture and send it to me? (08:02:14) uriel: (ideally with a couple of paragraphs explaining how you got it to work) (08:02:19) uriel: I'll post it to 9times (08:03:56) eekee: uriel: I have gcc native on the machine, I built inferno using the normal install instructions. It didn't work originally because I used gcc 4.1 which can generate incorrect code, I'm told (08:07:12) eekee: took me about 10 attempt to open a shell because of the jittery pointer (08:08:09) eekee: it looks just like inferno does on the desktop. I know, I'll screenshot it with a listing of Linux/arm/bin (08:08:57) olegfink: eekee: a photo of the actual beast running inferno would be cool. (08:09:27) eekee: yeah. :) give me a few (08:14:05) uriel: no hurry (08:15:39) eekee: the bigest problem with it was the number of attempts it took to get a sufficiently bug-free version of gcc on the machine (08:24:23) uriel: bug-free version of gcc, quite an oxymoron (08:24:45) eekee: hence the qualifier :) (08:30:06) eekee: *headdesk* (08:31:09) eekee: it won't run on the real thing. Same illegal instruction error as before (08:39:13) eekee: frustrating, especially when I thought it was fixed. ah well. (08:42:42) ***eekee lets gcc off the hook, for now (09:01:56) olegfink: uriel: fresh from #ocaml: a macosx-shipped version of gcc 4.0.1 comes with a broken (as in, completely and utterly) cpp. (09:04:02) anothy_x: did they give a break-case? (09:04:07) anothy_x: mine seems to work fine. (09:04:27) olegfink: yep, it's ignoring ##. (09:04:49) anothy_x: heh. my first reaction, of course, is "good for it." ;-) (09:05:14) olegfink: #define test(a,b) a##b (09:05:16) olegfink: test(1,2) (09:05:28) olegfink: that's the case the poor thing provided. (09:06:04) sqweek: is it supposed to work on numbers? (09:06:17) olegfink: cpp shouldn't care (09:06:32) sqweek: yeah, fair enough (09:06:48) olegfink: the original problem was with normal identifiers (09:07:12) olegfink: some ocaml library makes a surprising use of cpp's ##. (09:09:10) uriel: i must concede that ignoring ## is a feature (09:09:24) uriel: damn, anothy beat me to it (09:10:22) uriel: few projects fail to make a 'surprising use' of cpp (09:10:27) olegfink: well, that allows you to make really scary things out of C (09:10:27) uriel: depressingly enough (09:11:05) olegfink: s/surprising/sirprisingly large/ (09:11:05) uriel: yea, but for most people apparently 'scary == smart' (09:11:10) uriel: in their universe anyway (09:11:38) uriel: 'hey, if nobody can understand my code, it must mean that I'm so much smarter than anyone else!' (09:13:53) olegfink: uriel: got a reply from kx (09:14:06) uriel: oh, awesome! (09:14:25) olegfink: i don't think so, i kind of lost the point of why i asked. (09:14:25) uriel: what did they say? (09:14:42) uriel: heh (09:15:10) uriel: I thought they would have said they were switchign to use inferno as the fundation for the next k version :) (09:15:15) olegfink: i asked if k3 (with gui) is still available for evaluation, they answered that they no longer ship [sic] it, and asked if i'm going to use it in a commercial application (09:16:08) uriel: hummm... (09:16:22) olegfink: now if i figure out what i want from them, i might ask... (09:16:57) olegfink: i'm more than sure they have zero interest in shell-like applications for k (09:18:14) uriel: they are too busy making money :) (09:19:29) olegfink: they don't do academic programs either, so i really lost the point of talking to them. (09:19:40) anothy_x: fyi, looks like apple's cpp is busted at least back through the one that shipped w/ gcc 4.0.0. (09:19:47) anothy_x: on that news, heading to bed. g'night, all. (09:20:13) olegfink: night (09:20:52) uriel: good night anothy (09:22:23) olegfink: maybe arthur whitney will be interested in such things, but he'll probably say that he's been using k for such purpose for years... (10:17:20) andguent [n=andre@p4FF65340.dip.t-dialin.net] entered the room. (10:56:59) olegfink: holy gmail interface, all those labels and shiny stuff. but when I really need to label my emails (i just need to attach a url to them), there's no way gmail can do that. (11:34:53) [andguent] [n=andguent@labor.iig.uni-freiburg.de] entered the room. (11:37:07) gualteri [n=unknown@crespins.disca.upv.es] entered the room. (12:21:55) KillerX [n=anant@gentoo/developer/KillerX] entered the room. (13:47:36) eekee left the room (quit: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). (14:16:43) eekee [n=notyou@cpc3-lanc4-0-0-cust273.brig.cable.ntl.com] entered the room. (14:51:09) KillerX left the room (quit: ). (14:51:49) KillerX [n=anant@gentoo/developer/KillerX] entered the room. (15:07:05) anothy_x: olegfink: huh? Labels->Create New (17:21:00) olegfink: anothy_x: and put the url in label name? (18:13:07) uriel: and that interface for adding labels sucks, not to mention is totally unreachable when in sane-html-non-ajax mode (19:16:32) mennis [n=mennis@adsl-068-016-104-079.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] entered the room. (19:18:18) [andguent] left the room (quit: "blub"). (20:03:52) gualteri left the room (quit: "leaving"). (20:10:38) anothy_x: i don't think that interface is too bad, particularly given the constraints of a web site. i'd rather expect it to be a right-click action on the message if it were a "real" app on my computer, but i simultaneously don't want web pages able to touch what's in that menu. (20:10:53) anothy_x: it is true that there doesn't seem to be a way to do it in plain HTML mode, which is bad. (20:14:10) uriel: I disagree (20:14:24) uriel: see in google reader how one can trivially create new labels (20:14:43) uriel: (although folders are a bit more of a pain) (20:15:01) uriel: and adding new lables could be done witha similar ui as you add new people to the gtalk widget just under the label list (20:18:01) anothy_x: i agree that would be better. but the fact that something better exists doesn't mean the first thing sucks. having not done it in many months, it took me, maybe, three seconds to find, and was in the first place i looked after scanning the screen. (20:18:09) anothy_x: yes, it could be better. no, that doesn't mean it sucks. (20:21:51) uriel: the first thing sucks, I'm just pointing out that there are trivial alternatives already implemented by google on the same application which suck less (20:21:55) uriel: (they still suck) (20:24:42) anothy_x: sigh. whatever. (20:32:44) newmanbe [n=btdn@138.74.131.25] entered the room. 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(02:42:58) powerman: I'm now updating ebuild for gentoo for fresh svn, and try to solve fonts issue. (02:43:08) powerman: I've installed acme-sac, and notice this: (02:43:35) powerman: if {! ftest -d /fonts/lucidasans}{ (02:43:35) powerman: echo 'No fonts found. Run setupfonts to copy /fonts from www.vitanuova.com Inferno distribution.' (02:43:35) powerman: acme-font=/fonts/vera/Vera/unicode.14.font (02:43:35) powerman: acme-Font=/fonts/vera/VeraMono/VeraMono.14.font (02:43:35) powerman: } (02:43:39) uriel: let me guess, you notice fonts are hardcoded in the code (02:44:03) uriel: oh, that... hmm.. (02:44:22) powerman: so, looks like it isn't straightforward to push these vera fonts to wm/wm (02:44:33) uriel: why? (02:44:39) uriel: that seems reasonable, no? (02:44:43) powerman: at least I'm pretty sure it isn't enough to set fcme-font environment for this (02:44:53) uriel: oh, certainly not (02:44:59) uriel: (I suspect) (02:45:17) uriel: you have to bind the Vera fonts where the lucida are supposed to be (02:45:44) uriel: or at least that is what I think should take care of things... (02:45:46) powerman: also that notice probably mean free fonts are not enough - or why caerwin provided setupfonts? (02:46:01) uriel: I'm not sure it is provided anymore (02:46:08) uriel: (the comment might be outdated) (02:46:19) uriel: and it is probably provided for people that prefers the old ones (02:46:35) uriel: (might be that unicode coverage is better perhaps, but I'm not sure about that) (02:47:07) uriel: in any case, there is no reason not to provide free fonts by default, and if somebody wants to go to the hassle of installing the non-free ones, well, that is up to them (02:47:21) powerman: yeah, you right - there no setupfonts command, so it probably outdated (02:47:58) uriel: i got a copy of setupfonts, somewhere I think (02:48:56) powerman: I'm rarely use wm (actually, only for remote debugging). So I've no idea how to substitute fonts for it. Any ideas what to rtfm/try first? (02:49:41) uriel: here it is; http://ninetimes.cat-v.org/tips/2009/02/13/1/ (02:50:18) uriel: powerman-asdf: I mean just bind /fonts/vera /font/lucidasans (02:50:46) uriel: as early on as you can in the init scripts (02:51:21) uriel: ah, but perhaps that wont work well enough (02:51:29) uriel: blah (02:52:38) powerman: I'll be very surprised if it will work. File names are different, and I don't see any 'meta' file which will tie filenames to some properties... (02:54:11) powerman: also, acme-sac have only few fonts comparing to inferno (even without non-free fonts) (02:54:15) uriel: yea, that is what I'm looking into (02:58:05) powerman: also I see non-free font names hard-coded in many apps in appl/wm/*.b (02:58:39) powerman: and there no files with same names (like "unicode.7.font") in any of acme-sac fonts... (03:00:12) powerman: I'm pretty sure it's possible to fix all these things, but looks like it turn into huge patch which have to modify many apps... (03:00:29) uriel: yea, it is totally idiotic (03:00:32) ***uriel sighs (03:00:42) uriel: well, my idea was that instead of patching all the idiotic shit (03:00:49) powerman: and looks like in acme-sac this issue was solved by removing all these apps from /appl/wm/ (03:00:56) uriel: you bind some fake fonts in place for each of the used ones (03:01:41) uriel: the whole thing is hopeless, somebody needs to fork inferno and fix all this idiotic crap (03:01:48) uriel: but I feel exhausted just to think of it (03:02:22) powerman: $ ls fonts/vera/Vera | wc -l (03:02:22) powerman: 19 (03:02:22) powerman: $ ls /usr/inferno/fonts/lucida/ | wc -l (03:02:22) powerman: 730 (03:02:30) powerman: how to bind 19 files over 730? (03:02:42) uriel: with many calls to bind(1) :) (03:02:46) powerman: hehe (03:02:59) uriel: actually, I doubt all of them are referenced (03:03:05) powerman: don't think this will 'just works (tm)' :) (03:03:09) uriel: you just need to grep for the ones that are used (03:04:14) uriel: I think caerwyn or somebody had some code to allow using tt fonts directly, rather than using the rather archaic bitmap stuff (03:04:28) uriel: but of course, it is just some code who knows where that nobody uses or takes care of (03:07:00) powerman: don't you think do something like setupfonts do (and my ebuild for these fonts do) is much ease and much more reasonable? these 'non-free' fonts are free to use with inferno, and nobody need them for anything else. so looks like only headache with them happens while inferno installation... and mostly because of googlecode licensing rules. (03:07:36) powerman: only charles can fix all that stuff to use another fonts, and I don't think he'll do this (03:07:51) powerman: doing this without charles - mean fork, no more and no less (03:08:10) powerman: or, at least, huge patch to support (03:09:41) powerman: and I suppose it won't be ease to replace one font with another in all applications - this probably result in some bugs because things will look different, text will overlap, etc. (03:11:53) uriel: well, do whatever you think least bad (03:11:56) uriel: I hate the whole thing (03:12:39) uriel: and I do question the legality of the whole thing, those fonts are non-redistributable, what the grabfonts script does comes quite close to breaching the license (03:12:47) uriel: the fonts can only be distributed with inferno (03:13:07) uriel: if you download inferno, and extract the fonts, and then throw away inferno, well, I don't know (03:13:14) uriel: copyright is such an idiotic concept anyway (03:13:26) uriel: it is layer upon layer of idioticy and stupidity (03:14:29) powerman: sure (03:15:19) powerman: and I don't believe anybody in whole world will have troubles because of these font's license while he use them with inferno, in any possible way (03:15:33) powerman: at least not until there will be millions of inferno users :) (03:19:36) uriel: oh, I'm sure you are right (03:19:42) uriel: it is just that the whole topic stinks (03:19:54) uriel: and I just want to completely make it go away (03:19:58) uriel: not just work aorund it (03:37:15) powerman: me too. but for now I don't see how that possible in sane way (03:53:28) uriel: oh well, you are smarter than me, better not to worry about what we can't fix now, and fix other things (06:30:09) npe left the room (quit: Remote closed the connection). 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