Conversation with #inferno at Wed May 27 02:41:58 2009 on powerman-asdf@irc.freenode.net (irc)
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(09:33:39) sea-gull: mjl-: Hi! Are there functions like sizeof and offsetof in Limbo?
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(11:15:59) mjl-: yo sea-gull!
(11:16:11) mjl-: i don't think so
(11:16:15) mjl-: but why do you need them?
(11:16:25) mjl-: offsetof doesn't make much sense, as you can't make your own pointers
(11:16:34) mjl-: do you want to know the memory usage of your data structures?
(11:16:43) mjl-: or are you packing/unpacking data from/to disk to/from adt's?
(11:29:06) sea-gull: mjl-: I need them for reading index file. Constants can be used but I thought there's more flexible way
(11:31:28) mjl-: neh, normally you just write some Adt.pack & Adt.unpack functions that turn an array of byte into the Adt, or Adt into an array of byte
(11:59:33) sqweek: speaking of pack/unpack, how do you do that for ints/floats?
(12:00:02) sqweek: i was trying to write some limbo to generate a sine wave to /dev/audio awhile back and got stuck there
(12:04:44) mjl-: hah, i was writing something like it in c
(12:04:47) mjl-: well, for ints
(12:05:06) mjl-: ints are obvious i think?  i usually make a function p32(d: array of byte, v: int)
(12:05:20) sqweek: yeah i did in in c already :)
(12:05:39) sqweek: ah right, and just use bitwise ops?
(12:05:42) mjl-: o := 0; and then four of:  d[o++] = byte (v>>24);  with four different shifts
(12:06:40) mjl-: yeah, for incoming i just |= with different shifts
(12:06:53) mjl-: but for floats i think there is some function
(12:06:58) mjl-: i haven't used them much though
(12:07:23) mjl-: math.m has import_real & export_real
(12:07:43) mjl-: there is something in the mailing list on that
(12:07:48) mjl-: i think maht once asked for it
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(20:11:27) bjorkintosh: topic suggestion.
(20:11:50) bjorkintosh: can the book by stuart by put in the topic?
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(15:13:28) mjl-: wow, the full amd64 compilers have been added to inferno?
(15:13:49) mjl-: i thought they weren't public
(15:14:36) mjl-: hah
(15:14:51) mjl-: "this is an intermediate version not yet ready for use", that's clear
(15:21:04) olegfink: hm, so there could be a release of inferno/plan9 amd64 kernel?
(15:21:53) mjl-: the compilers' readme just say that's its not ready for use.  i wouldn't count on it too soon
(15:21:58) mjl-: but you never know :)
(15:22:20) mjl-: would be a good reason to buy new pc's
(15:23:16) olegfink: well, a README consisting solely of one phrase isn't even remotely as entertaining as xoc-unstable.tgz with hardcoded gcc/include paths.
(15:24:24) mjl-: :P
(15:25:00) olegfink: the inferno's ?c generate plan9's ?.out, right?
(15:27:33) olegfink: hm, speaking of utils/, how does utils/rcsh compare to byron's rc?
(15:38:40) mjl-: yeah, the a.out format is the same afaik
(15:38:44) mjl-: and i don't know about rcsh
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(16:25:01) anothy_x: afaik, rssh is "real" rc, but for windows. byron's rc isn't quite rc.
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(17:37:58) sea-gull: stange: man for filter-deflate says that it can work zlib compatible mode.
(17:38:22) sea-gull: but in practice it can't inflate what's deflated by zlibc code
(17:45:45) mjl-: have you updated recently?
(17:45:59) sea-gull: mjl-: no
(17:46:05) mjl-: it is a recent addition
(17:46:36) mjl-: do you have some sample data that is should be able to inflate, but cannot?
(17:46:40) mjl-: then i can test here
(17:48:54) sea-gull: mjl-: http://ifile.it/p7ym6za
(17:50:44) mjl-: hmm, what kind of file is that?
(17:50:56) mjl-: the page says it has a .zip suffix, but unzip can't read it
(17:51:10) mjl-: or is that zlib already?
(17:51:16) sea-gull: mjl-: it's deflated with zlib. Zip suffix is fake
(17:51:24) mjl-: ok
(17:53:15) mjl-: it works with both inferno's inflate and pythons zlib here
(17:53:30) mjl-: did you pass "z" in the filter parameters/
(17:53:34) sea-gull: mjl-: yes
(17:54:32) sea-gull: it's a new feature? I had updated inferno a month ago
(17:54:56) mjl-: yeah, relatively new
(17:55:07) mjl-: revision 412 it was added
(17:55:20) mjl-: Apr 30, 2009
(17:55:26) mjl-: so it's about a month old :)
(17:56:29) sea-gull: mjl-: ok, thank a lot :)
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(18:38:22) mjl-: np, hope it worked
(18:39:30) sea-gull: mjl-: I'm going to update it now. btw, why tables module doesn't have "all" method?
(19:02:53) mjl-: good question... i've needed one many times.
(19:03:12) mjl-: and i have to admit i used the adt definition in tables.m to extract all elements...
(19:03:23) mjl-: sometimes i write a different tables-like module...
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(14:38:52) pattern: are there any plans to port plan 9 utilities to linux, in the way "plan 9 from user space" was ported ?
(14:38:57) pattern: errr...
(14:39:04) pattern: are there any plans to port inferno utilities to linux, in the way "plan 9 from user space" was ported ?
(14:40:32) mjl-: you mean inferno's limbo programs?  that would mean rewriting them to c i suppose.  you can already compile & run the inferno c programs in utils/* (including the compilers) on linux and other host systems
(14:43:35) pattern: i mean stuff like inferno's shells
(14:44:53) pattern: (i'm only beginning to learn about plan 9 and inferno, so please forgive my not knowing whether the shells qualify as "limbo programs", or if they're written in c)
(14:46:13) mjl-: if you refer to inferno's sh(1), that is in limbo, and afaik there is no way to run it as "standalone unix program" (as in p9p) or any plans to make it that way
(14:46:52) mjl-: you can run limbo programs, e.g. ls like so:  emu ls
(14:47:19) pattern: would it be possible to run sh on linux in conjunction with some ported server processes?
(14:47:36) pattern: or is it just never going to be possible to do this on linux short of through an emulation layer?
(14:48:26) mjl-: what do you mean with ported server processes?  unix (c) programs that run standalone?  and do you want to start those server programs from inferno's shell?
(14:49:06) pattern: what i meant by a "ported server process" was some kind of separate process that serves up whatever it is that sh is not getting from linux
(14:51:09) mjl-: ah, you can get linux functionality into inferno in various ways.  the least intrusive is probably to use os(1) to start linux (or any hosted os) programs from within inferno (such as a shell inside inferno)
(14:51:32) mjl-: you can start a linux program and talk to it over some file descriptor to it.
(14:51:32) pattern: oh, no i wan't asking about getting linux functionality on inferno
(14:51:36) pattern: sorry i wasn't being clear
(14:52:06) pattern: i was referring to what you said about "afaik there is no way to run [sh] as "standalone unix program"
(14:52:46) mjl-: hmm, ok
(14:52:52) pattern: so, my question was whether if sh couldn't be run on linux by itself (as a standalone program), could it be made to run on linux in conjunction with some inferno service that was ported to linux
(14:55:00) mjl-: well, emu (the binary) is inferno-as-application.  sh(1) is a program that emu starts (interpreting its inthstructions).  a "stand-alone sh" can be had by compiling emu with sh in its root file system (or any other program that you want).  then you just start that compiled emu, and rename it to inferno-sh or something :)
(14:55:25) mjl-: then you basically have a full inferno that just executes a shell.
(14:56:17) pattern: oh, i see
(14:56:21) pattern: that's very interesting
(14:57:02) pattern: now, would this emu+sh combination be able to interact with the host linux os ?
(14:57:21) pattern: or would it be restricted to accessing only files/services within emu itself?
(14:57:37) mjl-: inferno can access all files of the host system through #U
(14:57:45) mjl-: so this emu+sh combination can do that as well
(14:57:55) pattern: that's great
(14:58:08) pattern: would this be transparent for the sh user?
(14:59:17) mjl-: depends on what you mean by that :)
(14:59:17) pattern: i mean, if i run emu+sh in a linux directory containing a file "foo", will "ls" in emu+sh show me foo?
(14:59:37) pattern: will i be able to execute foo from within emu+sh and have it run just as it would on linux?
(14:59:54) mjl-: no, it won't work like that without modifications
(15:00:19) pattern: ah... too bad
(15:00:25) mjl-: any programs in the inferno shell will be executed as if they were limbo programs.  but you want linux programs.  so you would need to change the inferno shell to execute all programs through os(3)
(15:00:27) pattern: but i'll see if i can give it a try, anyway :)
(15:00:56) pattern: mjl-: is that a big job?  or just a config file setting?
(15:01:01) mjl-: and you will need to do some work to use the linux host current working directory
(15:01:24) mjl-: it's not a big job i think, but it will require modifying inferno sh's limbo code
(15:01:51) mjl-: i think it's basically not executing programs as they are entered, but calling os(1) instead, with the original argv as arguments to os
(15:02:29) pattern: sounds reasonable
(15:03:04) mjl-: you might want to take a look at acme-sac.  it's a more standalone inferno, with acme.  that might have some code (e.g. using host os current working dir) that you could use.
(15:03:05) pattern: i'm just looking to use sh from linux, just as i would any other linux-native shell... but with sh's features
(15:03:09) mjl-: http://www.caerwyn.com/acme/
(15:03:40) pattern: cool.. thanks
(15:04:00) mjl-: pattern: to be honest, it sounds like a bit of overkill to use inferno just to get a shell on linux
(15:04:37) pattern: well, i have have a shell... but right now i'm ready to try something new
(15:04:56) pattern: and inferon's shell seems interesting
(15:05:08) pattern: inferno in general seems interesting
(15:05:19) pattern: but i don't think i'm ready to switch to it as my desktop os quite yet
(15:05:25) mjl-: yeah, that's my view.  inferno has lots more to offer than a different shell :)
(15:05:36) mjl-: neh, inferno isn't ready for use as desktop os
(15:05:41) pattern: yeah, i'm not trying to slight inferno by saying i just want the shell
(15:06:04) pattern: the shell was just what grabbed my interest first, since i was reading about rc on plan 9 before
(15:06:26) pattern: i'm sure there are plenty of other things that are great too.. and i'm very much looking forward to learning about them
(15:06:51) pattern: and i'll probably want to use them on linux, if i can, as i'm learning to use some of the plan 9 utilities that have been ported over
(15:07:08) pattern: there's just so much to learn...
(15:07:09) mjl-: cool
(15:07:11) mjl-: true
(15:07:15) mjl-: lots is different
(15:07:27) mjl-: inferno is so nice that it runs on other os'es
(15:07:35) mjl-: i'm running it on openbsd, linux & plan 9
(15:07:44) pattern: nice
(15:07:55) pattern: what do you use it for?
(15:08:20) mjl-: i use it as webserver, with a bunch of scgi programs
(15:08:34) mjl-: well, and much more :)
(15:08:44) mjl-: http://www.ueber.net/code/ ← most of that software is for inferno
(15:09:04) mjl-: i irc from inferno too of course :P
(15:09:42) pattern: how mature are inferno apps, in general, compared to linux apps?
(15:11:15) mjl-: part of the inferno (and plan 9 for that matter) design philosophy is to not have bloat.  so some tools will probably seem less "complete" than linux apps.
(15:11:36) pattern: so it's geared as being more of a server os?
(15:12:06) mjl-: i think it's easier to use it as such right now (given the code available)
(15:12:11) pattern: actually, i use a minimalist window manager (xmonad), so i can certainly empathize with the goal of reducing bloat
(15:12:27) mjl-: but it's design allows for writing "desktop" programs just fine
(15:12:40) mjl-: ah, i've heard of xmonad before.  never ran it though
(15:13:17) pattern: no window decorations (other than a one-pixel border around the active window, if there's more than one window on the screen)
(15:13:18) mjl-: in inferno (& plan 9) features are a tradeoff between size of added code, easy/elegance of implementation & need for the feature
(15:14:53) pattern: are inferno apps pretty stable, overall ?