Conversation with #inferno at Wed Dec 16 07:44:25 2009 on powerman-asdf@irc.freenode.net (irc)
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(15:52:18) mjl-: freenode sure is flakey nowadays...
(15:52:18) uriel: it is supposedly being ddosed
(15:52:24) mjl-: that would explain it
(15:52:51) me__: hi world
(15:53:09) mjl-: someone got really upset over all these communist open source programmers at freenode, giving away software and such
(15:53:11) mjl-: hej me__ 
(15:55:55) me__: what's up?
(15:56:04) EthanG: hi me__ 
(15:57:42) mjl-: not much.  i figured out in part why my nfs server for inferno wasn't performing as i hoped:  the openbsd nfs client is pretty broken.
(15:57:58) EthanG: ah heh
(15:58:09) EthanG: do you need nfs then?
(15:58:36) mjl-: readdirplus is useless, as it continuously flushes the cache for directories, and writes are somewhat broken as it doesn't properly send commit requests, but instead writes the data for a second time but then with "flush to disk immediately" flag (which is slow)
(15:58:46) mjl-: i'm making a file server
(15:59:05) mjl-: for inferno, but i want to have access to it on any machine here, so nfs seemed like the best route
(15:59:26) EthanG: I hope I never have to touch nfs lol
(15:59:30) mjl-: it still works, but slower then i hoped
(15:59:40) EthanG: ah aye
(16:00:33) mjl-: myeah, it isn't too great indeed.  security is lousy, the portmap infrastructure is annoying/overdone, and there are few guarantees of consistencies.
(16:00:38) mjl-: but at least it can be made to go fast :P
(16:00:47) EthanG: haha!
(16:01:01) mjl-: and the messages themselves aren't too terrible, wire-format wise
(16:01:12) EthanG: with those attributes it's a wonder obsd supports it at all, no? :)
(16:01:15) mjl-: (if you forget about the weak-cache-consistency stuff)
(16:01:21) mjl-: heh, yeah
(16:01:31) mjl-: but without nfs, it wouldn't have any network file system
(16:01:32) me__: ESTALE, yay.
(16:01:39) EthanG: IMHO cache consistency is somehting you should never ever ignore
(16:01:40) mjl-: except afs
(16:01:44) mjl-: but who uses that!
(16:01:54) EthanG: no 9p option?
(16:01:54) mjl-: EthanG: they didn't ignore it.  just made it weak! ;)
(16:01:59) EthanG: hehehe
(16:02:03) mjl-: me__: yeah, i've wnodered about estale
(16:02:26) me__: dovecot has a lot of code to safely read and write files in the face of ESTALE, it makes me sad. 
(16:02:28) mjl-: it seems linux & openbsd nfs clients treat estale as a permanent error, they don't try to lookup the file again
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(16:02:46) mjl-: ah, putting on the user space
(16:02:46) EthanG: promote 9p to the obsd team as a properly thought out network file protocol XD
(16:03:08) mjl-: me__: i found estale annoying, made my nfsfs (client) uglier
(16:03:13) mjl-: to handle that is
(16:03:25) mjl-: but of course it's easier just to forget about it entirely :)
(16:03:31) me__: sure
(16:03:48) me__: 9p is fairly chatty though and is less-well-impedence-matched to unix than nfs...
(16:03:53) mjl-: yeah
(16:04:06) mjl-: unix people need a 9p for unix operations
(16:04:21) EthanG: ahh
(16:04:25) me__: (i've not tried 9p2000.u...) but there's not a particularly good story for symlinks, for auth in most unix models
(16:04:33) mjl-: nfs is not too far off, except for the security & caching
(16:04:40) me__: and file locks
(16:04:42) EthanG: oh aye symlinks...
(16:04:49) mjl-: perhaps nfs4 makes more sense nowadays
(16:05:24) mjl-: or perhaps a couple 100 of its many 100's of pages allow the direct fd & syscall translation that 9p allow
(16:05:30) mjl-: but i'm not holding my breath
(16:05:44) me__: hahaha; is there an openbsd 9p client?
(16:05:50) mjl-: jup
(16:05:53) mjl-: muzgo wrote it
(16:06:06) mjl-: file system, in kernel
(16:06:06) me__: oh interesting; does it use fuse or is it native?
(16:06:09) mjl-: but not in openbsd main
(16:06:11) mjl-: native
(16:06:14) EthanG: I'm planning on using 9p but only for user data, not system
(16:06:14) mjl-: openbsd doesn't have fuse
(16:06:21) me__: oh, nice. (and yay to that too)
(16:06:23) mjl-: openbsd is still strugling with vnodes & their locking
(16:06:58) me__: any reason it hasn't aimed for tree?
(16:07:12) mjl-: not sure, it was posted to the tech list
(16:07:17) mjl-: no public response
(16:07:24) mjl-: i suppose no openbsd devs were interested
(16:07:29) mjl-: and then there is little chance...
(16:07:40) mjl-: and perhaps it wasn't completely stable yet
(16:07:49) me__: okay, fair; i wonder if they'd like it more with private namespaces :)
(16:07:59) mjl-: openbsd has enough trouble getting eg the locking for their own fs'es correct (or at least working)
(16:08:47) mjl-: me__: you working on anything?
(16:08:50) mjl-: the malloc?
(16:09:26) me__: yep; first the kernel malloc. i actually have some notes on it, i should start posting them...
(16:09:39) mjl-: sounds good :)
(16:09:55) mjl-: i have to look at the gc a bit
(16:10:10) mjl-: see if the problem with overactive gc is gone with the latest inferno changes
(16:10:16) mjl-: would be strange if it were...
(16:10:27) me__: mm, the VCGC paper is a fun read, it actually talks about Inferno directly
(16:10:41) mjl-: ah, i've got that printed somewhere
(16:10:47) mjl-: and i've got blstuarts book
(16:10:55) mjl-: which has some info about the gc
(16:11:02) mjl-: plus i have the code :P
(16:11:06) me__: i've not read the source, though. its in libinterp/gc.c, conveniently :)
(16:11:56) mjl-: i'm wondering if it would make sense to separate cyclic & non-cyclic data in the vm
(16:12:21) mjl-: not to make inferno do that, but in principle
(16:12:39) mjl-: the gc seems to walk the entire heap, including non-cyclic data
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(16:13:26) me__: iirc it shouldn't walk the whole heap?
(16:13:39) mjl-: yeah, that's the idea
(16:13:45) mjl-: limbo knows which data is cyclic
(16:13:50) mjl-: or at least which definately is not
(16:14:14) mjl-: and/or doesn't allow incompatible assignments
(16:14:28) me__: (i meant that the vcgc thing in the paper describes it as not walking the whole one.... 
(16:14:49) mjl-: oh
(16:14:50) mjl-: hmm
(16:15:03) me__: blarg, that sentence was garbled; hitting 'pizza' when i meant home was not quite right.
(16:15:06) mjl-: it does walk non-cyclic data, and has to, to start with the roots
(16:15:10) mjl-: :)
(16:16:14) mjl-: i should read first, then talk :)
(16:16:24) me__: i should reread it as well
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(16:41:46) soul9: anyone know how i can set that max memory of emu?
(16:43:39) EthanG: soul9: emu man emu 
(16:43:40) EthanG: ;)
(16:44:07) EthanG: or since I looked it up to check it worked, emu-ppool=maxsize
(16:44:22) EthanG: pools are main, heap, and image
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(17:31:55) soul9: EthanG: right heh, man emu
(17:32:00) ***soul9 bashes himself
(17:32:42) soul9: the defaults would be nice to know..
(17:33:49) soul9: and what units are used..
(17:34:06) EthanG: :D
(17:34:06) EthanG: yeah
(17:34:21) EthanG: ah easy to find out if you can run wm/wm
(17:34:23) soul9: I agree with uriel that inferno manpages aren't as superusefull as plan9 ones.. :-:
(17:34:23) soul9: :-/
(17:35:28) uriel: they have improved in the last couple of years
(17:35:38) uriel: it used to be that about half of the references were broken
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(19:10:56) dagle: Is porting inferno to new hardware hard? Me and some friends might think about doing it as a projekt.
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(19:13:21) mjl-: nope, not very hard
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(19:13:29) mjl-: especially if the hardware is sane :)
(19:13:40) mjl-: and even more so if it looks a bit like currently supported hardware
(19:13:52) mjl-: dagle: do you have particular hardware in mind?
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(19:14:27) dagle: mjl-: The beagleboard.
(19:14:35) mjl-: should be doable
(19:14:45) mjl-: it seems a bit hard to get started on
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(19:16:46) mjl-: from what i understood, with no ethernet to boot kernels from.  i was corrected recently, apparently it does have serial
(19:16:47) mjl-: but otherwise it's a new arm right?
(19:16:47) dagle: Yes.
(19:16:49) mjl-: perhaps some cache stuff is different
(19:16:50) mjl-: different mmu's won't matter, you won't need them for inferno
(19:16:52) mjl-: if the hardware is documented, and have the patience to compile & test a lot, it should all be possible
(19:17:08) dagle: It's a project in school so we have some time.
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(19:18:15) dagle: We will se. Might ask in the future.
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(19:18:31) dagle: It's mostly me that is a inferno/plan9 fan. :)
(19:19:09) mjl-: even if you just like the hardware-hacking part, inferno is a real good target
(19:19:32) mjl-: as its code is clean and it doesn't need code for the mmu
(19:19:35) dagle: That was what I thought too.
(19:19:58) mjl-: plus it doesn't have a "framework" for each type of driver
(19:20:08) dagle: Hehe.
(19:20:11) mjl-: so few of those to learn
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(01:19:23) mjl-: bummer, with the fewer osyield() calls in the recent inferno changes, cpu usage doesn't go down
(01:19:48) mjl-: system time does go down, user time goes up, which makes sense as the only thing the change did was reduce the number of osyield calls
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(01:48:54) me__: mjl-: what problem are you having?
(01:50:42) mjl-: emu busy running the gc
(01:50:48) mjl-: continuously
(01:50:55) mjl-: without reclaiming anything
(01:51:07) mjl-: i posted to the list about it some days ago
(01:51:20) mjl-: a week ago already...
(01:57:36) mjl-: it seems the gc is just really busy walking the same non-cyclic data...
(02:04:11) me__: what kind of conditions is this happening in?
(02:04:25) me__: also, do you have a test program, i'm curious about this...
(02:06:35) mjl-: the mail has a test program
(02:07:07) mjl-: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.os.inferno.general/4868
(02:07:36) me__: oh interesting, i didn't read that. 
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(03:30:30) mjl-: i think i found the "problem"
(03:30:48) mjl-: execatidle() is called from vmachine(), where dis is being executed from
(03:31:23) mjl-: in my case, the full 3 gc epochs (the execatidle call) take 500ms
(03:32:03) mjl-: so after the atexecidle call, the vmachine goes to sleep to wake another proc from the isched.vmq.  apparently another dis program wants to run.
(03:32:56) mjl-: but only for a very short time, so then the vmachine() kproc that just completed its gc epochs is idle again, and does execatidle() once more, taking another 500ms, letting the other vmq run again, etc etc.
(03:34:39) mjl-: i now modified execatidle() to do nothing when heapmem->nalloc hasn't changed since the previous execatidle
(03:35:01) mjl-: which seems to work
(03:35:26) mjl-: but now i'm wondering which dis program is running, and why it doesn't allocate a single heap object (or, whether my patch is correct)
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(11:54:06) mjl-: morning
(11:54:10) mjl-: it's snowing here!
(11:56:44) yiyus: is it snowing in #inferno?! awesome...
(11:57:27) mjl-: * *  *
(11:57:30) mjl-:  *   *  *
(11:57:38) mjl-: ** *  * 
(11:59:04) yiyus: where are you mjl? it is snowing here too (ghent, be)
(12:00:04) mjl-: netherlands
(12:00:20) mjl-: you've got 5cm?
(12:00:24) dagle: Been snowing here for 2 days.
(12:00:53) yiyus: mjl-: i think not yet, but it is quite close
(12:10:49) uriel: mjl-: HAHAHA
(12:10:56) uriel: (* *** **)
(12:34:00) ***EthanG grins & waves
(12:34:18) EthanG: no snow here, yet <_<
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(12:48:20) mjl-: uriel: don't forget i'm the ascii ecard tsar!
(12:48:38) mjl-: anyway, i've got more info on the emu overactive gc
(12:49:26) mjl-: my attempt yesterday to only run the gc when no allocs have been done is obviously bogus.  references to cyclic data can be dropped without allocating.  it was late yesterday, wasn't thinking straight
(12:49:42) mjl-: but i do know why the gc keeps so busy
(12:49:51) mjl-: it's the tk cursor blinker!
(12:50:16) ***EthanG laughs but isn't surprised
(12:50:22) mjl-: which runs every 500ms to (un)draw the cursor
(12:50:26) mjl-: it's pretty sad
(12:50:31) mjl-: i dislike that cursor anyway
(12:50:51) mjl-: i've disabled that proc (always having it drawn) and it is much more pleasant, at least in a shell
(12:54:22) mjl-: it seems that any polling behaviour of limbo programs makes inferno use too much cpu
(12:55:36) mjl-: with enough memory allocated, the gc just uses lots of cpu, and runs every time after a limbo program is done (even for the most trivial wakeup)
(13:03:52) mjl-: sweet, this make my emu that has wm/irc in it drop to 0% cpu usage when idle
(13:03:56) mjl-: instead of much higher
(13:03:58) mjl-: tkblink must die
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(13:15:55) soul9: mjl-: oh nice
(13:16:15) soul9: i noticed my wm/irc emu uses quite a bit of cpu, yeah
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(13:56:09) mjl-: soul9: yeah, when idle it uses too much
(13:56:15) mjl-: but when moving the mouse too
(13:56:35) mjl-: from ircfs' README:
(13:56:39) mjl-: - wm/irc: a ridiculous amount of cpu is used when moving the mouse over the irc window.
(13:56:43) mjl-: (from the todo section)
(13:56:55) mjl-: but it may be because the gc is run after every mouse move...
(13:57:37) mjl-: i'm going to test with running the gc when idle less often
(13:57:41) soul9: •t then why doesn't it do it with other apps?
(13:57:53) soul9: s/•/bu
(13:58:18) soul9: oh it does!
(13:58:24) soul9: same thing with acme
(13:58:45) soul9: and over wm in general, actually
(13:59:02) mjl-: yeah
(13:59:05) soul9: mjl-: so it's not an ircfs bug, it's an inferno bug (at least on linux)
(13:59:16) soul9: but i bet you knew that :)
(13:59:29) mjl-: myeah, "bug"... it's just cpu!
(13:59:37) mjl-: and at low priority
(13:59:47) mjl-: but still, it doesn't do anything useful most of the time
(14:00:02) mjl-: ah well, have to be honest.  if it was my code, i would call it a bug :)
(14:01:34) soul9: heh, that's definitely a bug
(14:01:46) soul9: but i think they've had enough of following the xorg guys
(14:01:59) soul9: things change and break pretty often i can imagine
(14:03:21) mjl-: hah, i'm now reading rogs mail again in that thread
(14:03:35) mjl-: he was right
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(14:04:01) mjl-: with his explanation.  i suck for finding the same out only so much later :)
(14:05:51) soul9: heh, /me looks for the thread
(14:07:41) soul9: http://code.google.com/p/inferno-os/issues/detail?id=167 <- looks like this has nothing to do with X actually, ok
(14:08:08) mjl-: nopes, it doesn't
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