Conversation with #inferno at Wed Oct 23 19:37:31 2013 on powerman@irc.freenode.net (irc)
(19:37:31) #inferno: Topic for #inferno set by mennis at 17:30:16 on 12/28/09
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(16:02:15) inferno-joe [4475c643@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.117.198.67] entered the room.
(16:02:33) inferno-joe: leet you online?
(16:03:50) powerman: inferno-joe: if you use all and full usernames like leetspete and leetspete1 there will be more chance he'll notice it
(16:05:22) inferno-joe: powerman: thanks for the tip
(16:05:54) inferno-joe: powerman: by the way... THANK YOU SO MUCH for the IRC logs... I've found them invaluable
(16:06:14) powerman: you're welcome :)
(16:06:48) inferno-joe: powerman: by the way, is you site served from an inferno httpd?
(16:07:48) powerman: they are not 100% complete (sometimes I reboot to windows to play some games, but that happens rarely), but until someone setup bot on server to keep all logs it's better than nothing
(16:08:20) powerman: no, my site is usual (nginx+apache)
(16:09:15) inferno-joe: :0
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(16:09:19) inferno-joe: :)
(16:09:53) inferno-joe: leetspete: are you gonna make it to IWP9?
(16:10:10) inferno-joe: leetspete1: are you gonna make it to IWP9?
(16:10:51) inferno-joe: anyone here have any tips or best practices for a public facing inferno httpd?
(16:13:07) powerman: I'm using inferno where it makes my life simpler, but for now I still think Perl/Mojolicious (and other scripting languages) is better suited to implement web interfaces than Limbo
(16:14:47) powerman: things like html templates with embedded perl (to avoid using one more, usually very limited, syntax in templates)…
(16:16:23) powerman: also I'm afraid using inferno's httpd on modern websites may quickly lead to any sort of browser support or performance issues just because it wasn't wide tested yet
(16:16:56) inferno-joe: thanks for the tips
(16:18:52) qrstuv: i just wrote my own web server instead of using the svc/httpd stuff
(16:19:05) qrstuv: a few people have written their own server more suited to their purposes
(16:19:37) powerman: like several strange limits I hit when started using inferno for handling thousands simultaneous network connections (some was fixed by Charles, but I believe there are may be few which I still have to patch manually)
(16:36:40) inferno-joe: indeed i've written several (probably crappy) webservers... one in lua went into production (i won't tell you where because you might learn how very crappy it is) and one using russ cox's libtask (only used as a debug interface to a XMPP component with a message broker / key-val store
(16:38:58) inferno-joe: ok, despite the good advice here about limbo for httpd, i think i'll post messages on the inferno ml and 9fans ml asking about any "real life" users of either the stock limbo httpd or mjl's shttpd
(16:39:11) inferno-joe: please don't take this as disrespect :D
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(17:12:22) sandbender1512: mjl in here by any chance?
(17:14:03) sandbender1512: or caerwyn?
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(17:42:04) inferno-joe: i think mjl has been off the irc for a while...
(17:42:33) sandbender1512: ah, ok... trying to get a hold of him to pull my patch for UDP tracker support in his torrent package
(17:42:44) sandbender1512: does caerwyn ever show up in here?
(17:43:49) inferno-joe: i did get him to join my linkedin network... maybe a bit of social engineering? i assume you're trying via his bitbucket account?
(17:43:57) sandbender1512: ya
(17:44:55) inferno-joe: such a productive guy
(17:45:10) inferno-joe: i wish we could grow the inferno community
(17:45:13) inferno-joe: any ideas
(17:45:40) sandbender1512: not really... I've been using it for ages but every time I try to get someone interested I feel like they're reaching for the asylum hotline
(17:46:20) sandbender1512: *seems* like stuff is slowly gaining fresh interest tho... plan9front looks like a good example of renewed interest/activity around Plan9/Inferno
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(18:47:05) sandbender1512: anyone in here using attrfs, or attrdb for anything other than /lib/ndb/local stuff?
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(19:24:22) mortdeus: inferno-joe, idk Limbo is kinda too exotic. especially when people willing to use limbo, probably prefer Go instead. 
(19:26:08) mortdeus: ive been working on the goblin toolchain. But its been put on the backburner until I have more time to focus on it. 
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(20:19:21) fosap2: Hi. How to increase the number of maximal open files? A ulimit(4,n) equivalent?
(20:19:58) fosap2: mk on qwm fails with "Too many open files"
(20:21:37) sandbender1512: idk, but have you tried building qwm from the host OS? This work(s/ed) for me
(20:23:31) fosap2: no, good idear
(20:24:49) sandbender1512: as long as your ROOT env var is set & exported that should work
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(20:31:18) fosap2: qwm does not run inside wm/wm or inside itself. But I think that's how it is supposed to work
(20:31:45) sandbender1512: correct afaik...
(20:32:07) sandbender1512: there's mention of 'floating mode' in the todo section of the readme, I think that's the ability to run qwm inside wm/wm
(20:32:18) sandbender1512: but at the moment afaik (was playing with it very recently) it's a replacement for wm/wm
(20:34:57) fosap2: I think the floating mode means individual windows are not stacked
(20:35:12) fosap2: on Linux you need that for gimp e.g.
(20:35:46) fosap2: tiling wms usually have a excepation for gimp and call that floating mode
(20:40:05) sandbender1512: oh I C what you mean... that sorta defeats the whole idea behind tiling wm tho?
(20:40:27) sandbender1512: anyways... I thought I remembered a reference somewhere about running it inside wm/wm or itself but I don't think it's supposed to work yet if it's there at all
(20:41:57) fosap2: I thought that was the beauty of plan9
(20:42:21) fosap2: abstraction, so the wm does not even know weather it's running in another one or not
(20:42:33) sandbender1512: yeah
(20:42:40) fosap2: How does graphics work on inferno btw?
(20:42:45) fosap2: there is /dev/draw
(20:42:50) fosap2: like plan9
(20:43:07) sandbender1512: but I mean Inferno != Plan9 even though it's close heh... I dunno anything about the internals of qwm either, not sure why the nested running doesn't work <shrug>
(20:43:11) sandbender1512: dunno
(20:43:25) sandbender1512: any graphics internals isn't something I know too much about sry
(20:43:43) leetspete1: When you start up, you get a Draw->Context or you're supposed to initialize the draw device.
(20:45:19) leetspete1: qwm doesn't like getting a context handed to it, but you can run wm inside qwm.
(20:45:40) leetspete1: (I crawled around that area when doing the SDL stuff.)
(20:46:39) leetspete1: emu doesn't talk to the graphics device (or the keyboard or mouse or anything) if there's no context passed to it.
(20:46:47) leetspete1: er...
(20:47:06) leetspete1: s/context passed to it/attempt to initialize draw/
(20:48:15) sandbender1512: speaking of mouse... anyone have issues with pasting from the snarf buffer when running emu in OSX?
(20:48:22) fosap2: On plan9, the wm just creates a new frame buffer (or what ever it is called) for every window
(20:48:45) fosap2: In inferno, wm/sh does create a in and out device to communicate with the shell
(20:48:54) sandbender1512: 1-3 chords (or other avenues to paste) always, consistently, truncate my buffer... ie: I get like 40% of what was snarfed instead of the whole thing
(20:49:38) leetspete1: inferno-joe: Emailing you. ☺
(20:49:59) fosap2: How does draw / wmclient / wmlib (roughly) wrap /dev/draw?
(20:50:28) fosap2: It's all via limbo function calls, and not via file operations, is it?
(20:52:49) fosap2: I think so, because, that Draw->Context directly passed to the programm
(20:53:50) sandbender1512: not sure exactly what you're asking, but there's also Wmclient.makedrawcontext(..) that you can use if there's no passed in ctxt
(20:54:16) sandbender1512: (again, graphics is not my forte anyways, someone else probably has better answer(s))
(20:55:45) leetspete1: Yeah, the situation is (and this is an area where I'm slightly hazy, so don't quote me) that most of the mediation is done by the window manager, so you thread draw contexts, although anything can open /dev/draw and make its own context.
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(21:11:52) fosap2: Is the fact every process is called with a context a "baked-in" feature of the kernel, or is this "userland" stuff?
(21:14:25) fosap2: The type signature of a init is fixed? I mean I could write my own lauchner, that loads a dis file and than calls a differenet function, right?
(21:15:23) fosap2: So, the question is: Is this what the wm does, or is there a lower mechanism to manage this?
(21:15:45) fosap2: I'm reading the code, be there are serveral components, and it only confuses me more
(21:17:34) leetspete1: Yeah, you could do that.  I mean, the type is only fixed in the "things that call Command expect this".  Initializing and getting a context are the device's purview, the rest is done by wm.
(21:18:05) leetspete1: Somewhere in Wmclient.
(21:30:27) fosap2: I think i' starting to understand now.
(21:32:19) sandbender1512: fosap2: curious what you're writing/working on?
(21:33:12) fosap2: Nothing in particular. I'm trying to understand qwm mostly.
(21:33:53) fosap2: I wanted to write my own windowmanager, but I never finish these projects
(21:34:30) fosap2: wm/wm is not very userfriendly IMO
(21:34:34) sandbender1512: heh yeah I know what you mean
(21:35:14) sandbender1512: I love qwm's design except it crashes for me periodically... not quickly/all the time, but enough that I can't use for my day-to-day environment :/
(21:35:26) sandbender1512: another unfinished project: figure out why/where it's crashing ;)
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(21:38:48) sandbender1512: anyone here running emu under OSX?
(21:45:21) leetspete1: sandbender1512: I used to.  I never had the snarf problems you mentioned, but it was 10.7, and I only left the full-screen Inferno to use the browser.
(21:50:24) sandbender1512: hmm
(21:50:42) sandbender1512: yeah so it's copying and pasting within inferno even, not isolated to host <-> inferno 
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(21:51:10) sandbender1512: ie: 1-2 in acme to snarf and then subsequent 1-3 in acme to paste truncates the data 
(21:51:14) sandbender1512: anyways, kk thx
(21:51:36) sandbender1512: mainly looking for hints on where to start digging, don't mind fixing/debugging myself, but such a weird issue I dunno where to start
(21:57:29) leetspete1: emu/port/devsnarf.c is pretty straightforward, but a lot of that would be handled in /emu/MacOSX/win.c.
(21:58:17) leetspete1: If it's a problem with the mechanism itself, you could try checking the contents of /dev/snarf periodically.
(21:58:52) leetspete1: (Opening /dev/snarf in Acme is useful for a host of other reasons, as well. ☺)
(22:01:42) sandbender1512: cool thanks, that's a good starting point :)
(22:01:57) leetspete1: clipread and clipwrite are the likely culprits if the bug is in Inferno.  Looks like it truncates to 100k runes.
(22:02:08) sandbender1512: it's specific to OSX for sure, at least for me... ie: I use inferno daily as my main env on my linux box and never had this issue (same versions/etc)
(22:02:22) sandbender1512: no this isn't a hard threshold
(22:02:30) sandbender1512: it's truncating to ~ 40% of whatever's snarfed
(22:03:01) sandbender1512: ie: If I copy "this is a string" I'll get something like "this is" when I paste
(22:03:11) sandbender1512: it's proportional for larger chunks of snarf-age
(22:03:16) sandbender1512: very weird :/
(22:10:05) leetspete1: Hm...maybe some rune vs. char issue?
(22:10:50) sandbender1512: perhaps? I'll keep that in mind when I go to debug
(22:14:23) leetspete1: If you copy "this is a string", what's inside /dev/snarf?
(22:16:43) anth_r: <fosap2> On plan9, the wm just creates a new frame buffer (or what ever it is called) for every window
(22:17:10) anth_r: that's not quite right. that was pretty much right under 8½ in 2e, but not in 3e+.
(22:24:43) sandbender1512: leetspete1: progress! "this is " is what's in /dev/snarf after copying "this is a string"
(22:25:12) sandbender1512: however... I can chord 1-2-3 to copy and leave text un-altered, and it leaves it as is
(22:25:16) sandbender1512: ie: the original text is intact
(22:25:22) sandbender1512: but I get the truncated version in /dev/snarf
(22:27:18) sandbender1512: hmm weird... in acme the 1-2-3 chord leaves the original text intact with the truncated /dev/snarf... but in a shell the 1-2-3 leavesthe original text truncated too
(22:28:52) leetspete1: Yeah, in acme 1-2-3 amounts to an undo rather than cut/paste.
(22:29:55) sandbender1512: ah that makes sense, so the snarf mechanism is truncating for some reason then
(22:32:14) leetspete1: If you echo directly to /dev/snarf and then read it back, it's still truncated?
(22:32:33) sandbender1512: yep
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(16:54:10) sandbender1512: leetspete: around?
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(18:09:41) sandbender1512: awww yeah... I fixed the buggy snarf buffer stuff for MacOSX!
(18:11:42) qrstuv: and as a reward you get to use wm/wm on osx
(18:11:51) qrstuv: your good deed has not gone unpunished
(18:11:51) sandbender1512: WIN! ;)
(18:12:21) sandbender1512: @ home I use linux... but when I have to go to the office... up until now it was "*GROAN* ... buggy snarf buffer... severely crippled acme..."
(18:12:28) sandbender1512: heh
(18:12:51) sandbender1512: now to see if I can get forsyth to include my one-liner patch
(18:13:44) sandbender1512: qrstuv: you use qwm I suppose?
(18:14:28) qrstuv: i don't use inferno's graphical things
(18:14:34) sandbender1512: ah gotcha
(18:16:13) sandbender1512: mind if I ask what you *do* use inferno for?
(18:16:35) sandbender1512: (just curious about other inferno-people's usage patterns/applications/etc)
(18:17:16) qrstuv: i'm currently replacing all my go web stuff with inferno
(18:17:37) sandbender1512: cool :)
(18:17:38) qrstuv: go wasted too much memory and was annoying to manage
(18:18:16) sandbender1512: that's interesting... mortdeus commented yesterday that limbo is 'too exotic' and most people interested in using it would likely just use Go instead (paraphrasing a bit)
(18:18:52) qrstuv: inferno and dis are nice, but i don't much like limbo
(18:19:28) sandbender1512: but you're porting your Go code -> limbo, or... ?
(18:19:33) qrstuv: yes
(18:20:56) sandbender1512: main reason(s)?
(18:21:58) qrstuv: i had a few dozen web servers in go, and each used 10MB of memory minimum
(18:22:16) qrstuv: and then they bloat up from there, since go isn't to good about giving memory back to the os
(18:22:32) mortdeus: wasted to much memory as apposed to a language that runs in a VM and doesnt have doesnt have an active development team optimizing it because they would rather work on Go? 
(18:23:33) mortdeus: no offense to the perhaps single person who is still working on Limbo. ;) 
(18:23:38) qrstuv: one of those two is an actual concrete problem
(18:24:27) powerman: mortdeus: he isn't single person, there is at least two - I also prefer limbo over go :)
(18:24:48) mortdeus: Considering that I run go on a netbook with 1 gig of ram and a 1.4 intel atom processor. Your concerns of overhead are highly over exaggerated. 
(18:25:03) qrstuv: i guess you're the expert
(18:25:45) sandbender1512: I'd rather code in limbo as well... I took a look at go a few times including the other day... main response was "okay, but... why? nothing here is new"
(18:26:17) qrstuv: i miss panics and interfaces, but loading modules at run-time is handy
(18:26:24) sandbender1512: same response I have for apple fanboys who refer to Time Machine... yes, archival storage existed a VERY long time before Apple did it... it's called "venti" ;)
(18:26:26) mortdeus: Im not trying to be the expert. Im trying to be pratical. limbo has no future so you might as well invest in any other language. I like limbo, I like inferno, I like the ideas. But why not invest in a language thats actually going somewhere? 
(18:26:45) qrstuv: because who gives a shit
(18:27:28) mortdeus: nobody does, and thats what fucks up technology. 
(18:28:09) qrstuv: i bet you're full of insights about technology
(18:29:20) powerman: mortdeus: at this moment i think limbo has no future … just like Go
(18:29:23) mortdeus: And I bet you do, considering your in this room right now. Its not about who is right or wrong. Its about trying to take whatever we can from the work put into plan9 and inferno, and give it life beyond a community of tens of people. 
(18:29:35) powerman: Go is too low in TIOBE to be said it has future
(18:29:49) sandbender1512: I'd argue that constant re-invention of the wheel and pushing forward instead of solidifying foundations fucks up technology
(18:30:05) powerman: actually, it going down on list, last time I've checked it was at least in top 50, but not now
(18:30:09) sandbender1512: see Jeff Goldblums diatribe about discipline and science in Jurassic Park ;)
(18:31:01) mortdeus: TIOBE is a pointless index to use as a reference of a language's impact. Especially when the language is 4 years old. 
(18:32:00) powerman: mortdeus: you've better suited index of languages?
(18:32:14) mortdeus: Not everyone who uses a programming language is doing anything badass programming. Go has shown a high adoption rate at tech companies actually innovating. 
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(18:33:16) mortdeus: technically visual basic is one of the higher programming languages on TIOBE. So lets all drop what were doing and go live basic boring lives. ;) 
(18:33:17) powerman: that happens to a lot of languages at some point in time, most of which doesn't have any future
(18:34:15) powerman: no, I didn't suggest use only language from TIOBE top 10. I just doubt Go have future
(18:34:33) mortdeus: not when those languages have these kind of result. http://blog.iron.io/2013/03/how-we-went-from-30-servers-to-2-go.html http://blog.cloudflare.com/go-at-cloudflare
(18:34:52) mortdeus: powerman, then I highly recommend you dont ever invest in the stock market. 
(18:35:18) mortdeus: and I apologize for saying that. Because it really made me feel like a dick. 
(18:35:26) powerman: mortdeus: thanks, I never ever thing about investing in stocks. I prefer to make money by writing software :)
(18:35:30) powerman: *think
(18:37:04) powerman: as for several success stories - I think every language had some. and they sounds important at time they happens… but where is all these languages?
(18:38:08) mortdeus: powerman, you mean like java, python, ruby, C#, C++, obj-C, and C? 
(18:38:22) powerman: and don't get me wrong. I'll be really happy if Go will became really popular and widely used - it's not limbo, but close enough to take this as partial success of inferno/limbo (some ideas, at least)
(18:38:55) powerman: mortdeus: you just enumerated tiobe top 10 :)
(18:39:11) mortdeus: in the right order? 
(18:39:55) mortdeus: nope
(18:40:40) mortdeus: c, java, obj c, C++, php, C#, bad ass vb, python, SQL (fucking seriously?), JS. 
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(20:33:25) leetspete1: sandbender1512: Cool!  What was the problem/fix?
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(20:50:25) leetspete1: Also, apropos of nothing:  http://i.imgur.com/ILa7A.gif
(20:54:26) sandbender1512: heh
(20:56:15) sandbender1512: inside clipread(..), in emu/MacOSX/win.c:
(20:56:46) sandbender1512: snprint(snarf, sizeof snarf, "%.*S", length/sizeof(Rune), rsnarf);
(20:56:47) sandbender1512: ->
(20:57:00) sandbender1512: snprint(snarf, sizeof snarf, "%.*S", length, rsnarf);
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(21:08:25) leetspete1: Ah!
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(21:09:09) sandbender1512: mostly your help that resulted in that, would have taken me forever and a day to track it down myself if I didn't have a starting point, heh
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(21:17:21) leetspete1: Glad to be of service!  It is a little hard to navigate; I wouldn't have known that but I had to read it last time I was in there.
(21:17:36) sandbender1512: :)
(21:20:07) ***leetspete1 is still hoping to get some time to port Inferno to Haiku at some point...
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(21:21:19) leetspete1: They use GCC, I imagine that the layout of the stack and everything would be the same.
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(21:22:41) sandbender1512: that sounds like a big project
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(21:27:46) leetspete1: Well, it's almost all portable, the code works just fine with gcc, and I've already gotten the display to use SDL (which was not that hard, as it turns out), so I figure the worst case is crawling through the assembly code and figuring out the stack, best case is I can just copy the code for Linux/gcc. ☺
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(21:28:57) sandbender1512: :)
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(21:48:27) sandbender1512: anybody know if/how to do a pull request on google code?
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(21:55:37) leetspete1: That's a very good question.  I don't think Charles does that; just sending a patch to the mailing list ought to get it included.
(21:57:51) sandbender1512: cool thx I'll do that
(22:00:11) sandbender1512: ... this mailing list is where? no mention of a list on the google code project pages?
(22:06:11) leetspete1: Oh, dang, lemme check...
(22:06:33) sandbender1512: thx
(22:09:48) leetspete1: AhHA!  Details here:  http://www.vitanuova.com/news/newsgroup.html
(22:11:41) sandbender1512: perfect thx!
(22:11:44) sandbender1512: subscribed
(22:16:53) leetspete1: wooo
(22:17:44) leetspete1: I gotta client meeting to run off to (Ruby and Javascript...way less fun than Inferno) but I'll be around evening time PST.
(22:18:09) sandbender1512: cool I might be online later too - ttyl!
(22:18:25) leetspete1: Later!
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(01:07:17) powerman: sandbender1512: I think attaching patch to issue on google code is much better than sending it to maillist
(01:08:12) powerman: it won't lost this way and will be easier to find by others who may need this fix urgently in case Charles won't accept it
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