Conversation with #inferno at Thu Nov 14 02:43:35 2013 on powerman@irc.freenode.net (irc)
(02:43:35) #inferno: Topic for #inferno set by mennis at 17:30:16 on 12/28/09
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(11:55:59) qrstuv: /appl/lib/watchvars.b is a work of art
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(17:21:48) sandbender1512: qrstuv: just checked that out... pretty sure I understand the vast majority and it is indeed elegant... however I'm not familiar with the adt[T] syntax, can't find anything in the limbo docs... can you point me somewhere to clarify that?
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(17:30:01) anth_x: the [T] is the type polymorphism, added after the initial docs were written.
(17:30:41) anth_x: it was described in a stand-alone document first, along with other changes VN made, but i'm not sure if it got folded in to later versions of the language reference manual.
(17:35:17) anth_x: sandbender1512: ah, see /doc/changes.(ms pdf)
(17:38:15) sandbender1512: ah, gotcha... assumed as much, just couldn't find the docs... thanks!
(17:38:31) anth_x: i think the "separate note" promised in that document happened, but i don't have a pointer.
(17:42:45) anth_x: it really does seem like it ought to be in /doc/limbo. you might consider a politely worded prod to charles.
(17:55:55) sandbender1512: therein lies the issue... I've tried to get a hold of both him and caerwyn on numerous occasions... they seem to be difficult to contact and I don't have a proper email addy for either :/
(17:56:21) sandbender1512: either that or they're not interested in talking to random inferno fanboys who try to stalk them online ;)
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(19:39:36) ***rogpeppe1 wonders if he wrote watchvars.b
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(19:43:45) rogpeppe1: qrstuv, sandbender1512: it's similar to something i wrote about 
(19:44:42) rogpeppe1: hmm, look like i did
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(19:44:47) rogpeppe1: looks
(19:47:24) rogpeppe1: i love the fact that i can still log into a server that i last used more than 8 years ago
(19:48:54) rogpeppe1: sandbender1512: i'm quite often around and have reasonable (but rusty!) knowledge of inferno stuff
(19:52:35) sandbender1512: rogpeppe1: thx! yeah, I've started hanging around in here since it seems to be the only place I can talk to other inferno people real-time...
(19:52:59) rogpeppe1: sandbender1512: i don't use inferno that much these days. i miss it.
(19:53:03) sandbender1512: I also have 'reasonable' knowledge but it helps to have others to talk to for various reasons
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(19:53:22) rogpeppe: sandbender1512: what have you been doing with it?
(19:53:25) sandbender1512: I use it every day right now - my main dev env/setup... 
(19:53:33) rogpeppe: sandbender1512: cool
(19:53:38) sandbender1512: I do whatever I can with it :D I love the design ideals of Plan9/Inferno
(19:53:42) rogpeppe: sandbender1512: me too
(19:54:01) sandbender1512: I'm pretty much a bare-bones/minimalist when it comes to tech so the more I can do in Inferno the better :)
(19:54:05) sandbender1512: (programmer by trade)
(19:54:30) rogpeppe: me too
(19:54:48) rogpeppe: sandbender1512: but these days i do everything in Go
(19:55:43) rogpeppe: sandbender1512: which is funnily both more and less dynamic than limbo
(19:55:46) sandbender1512: heh, yeah I've heard a number of people say 'why use limbo when you can do the same stuff with Go'...
(19:55:50) ***sandbender1512 nods
(19:56:01) sandbender1512: seems like lots of people equate Go with a modern version of limbo
(19:56:10) rogpeppe: sandbender1512: well, it kind of is
(19:56:22) rogpeppe: sandbender1512: and there are some piece which are definitely better
(19:56:25) rogpeppe: pieces
(19:56:35) sandbender1512: my opinions tend to go the other way around in terms of the comments I make to people... "why use a buggy Apple product like Time Machine? this existed ages ago - it's called Venti" ;)
(19:56:38) rogpeppe: sandbender1512: but i miss tuples and dynamic module loading particularly
(19:56:47) rogpeppe: :-)
(19:56:57) rogpeppe: sandbender1512: i haven't had good experiences with time machine
(19:57:03) rogpeppe: sandbender1512: i really miss dumpfs
(19:57:09) rogpeppe: sandbender1512: pretty much every day
(19:57:25) sandbender1512: me neither... it destroyed all my backups after 3 months and notified me *after* the fact that this was necessary as part of a software upgrade
(19:57:44) sandbender1512: ie: "your backups have been deleted as part of the upgrade process..."
(19:58:00) rogpeppe: sandbender1512: yeah, that's my experience too
(19:58:10) sandbender1512: that was the first and last straw, went back to Venti immediately... my whole Apple experience has been horrible from day 1
(19:58:46) rogpeppe: sandbender1512: my problem with venti was that the fossil front end doesn't give you any of the venti goodness
(19:59:13) rogpeppe: sandbender1512: i'm interested to see where camlistore goes
(19:59:16) sandbender1512: I plan to checkout Go at some point, ie: seriously play with it... not time right now though, I have young kids and way to crammed schedule... my 'fun' programming is limited to coding in LISP and Inferno stuff these days 
(19:59:26) rogpeppe: sandbender1512: common lisp?
(19:59:30) sandbender1512: I'm not familiar with camlistore?
(19:59:32) ***sandbender1512 googles
(20:00:00) rogpeppe: sandbender1512: if you've done some limbo then Go will be an instant pickup for you
(20:00:30) sandbender1512: yeah I've done a decent bit of limbo
(20:00:42) rogpeppe: sandbender1512: the type system is actually really nice
(20:00:51) sandbender1512: including but not limited to writing a 9p2000 filesystem for accessing HTTP (rest) based JSON web services
(20:00:54) sandbender1512: (JSONFS)
(20:01:01) rogpeppe: sandbender1512: cool
(20:01:15) sandbender1512: which, I plan to upload/commit at some point to my bitbucket/github/etc, just haven't gotten around to it yet
(20:01:23) sandbender1512: it's fairly stable though, ie: I use it and it works :)
(20:01:55) sandbender1512: I read up on it recently as a result of some comments here... ie: tutorial/tour/etc type stuff
(20:02:03) rogpeppe: sandbender1512: one of the nice bits of Go is the json marshalling and unmarshalling capabilities
(20:02:13) sandbender1512: it did indeed sound basically like a modern limbo with some differences but pretty close
(20:02:19) sandbender1512: ah nice
(20:02:26) sandbender1512: yeah that's definitely handy these days
(20:02:37) rogpeppe: sandbender1512: the reflection and the interface types give it quite a different feel to work with
(20:03:25) rogpeppe: sandbender1512: in some weird ways it feels a bit lispish, in that you can use the basic structure of the language (types) to drive app-specific logic
(20:03:28) leetspete1: *Almost* instant. I seem to end up having arguments with Go about syntax a lot. ;)
(20:03:40) sandbender1512: hehe
(20:03:41) rogpeppe: leetspete1: :-)
(20:03:53) rogpeppe: leetspete1: ya just have to leave out the colons...
(20:03:58) rogpeppe: leetspete1: and semicolons
(20:04:22) sandbender1512: that's typical for anyone who's ever used/learned one language (syntax arguments) ;)
(20:05:19) leetspete1: That, and the no-tuples thing kills me.  I may be doing it wrong, but I do a lot of one-member structs just to ship things through channels.
(20:05:24) sandbender1512: at work I've been doing python for a number of years now... but we use Puppet for our config mgmt, which is Ruby based... I *still* confuse syntax when I have to go in and edit ruby stuff... "what do you mean that colon is a problem? no it's not!" ;)
(20:05:56) rogpeppe: leetspete1: you mean two-member structs, presumably?
(20:06:04) rogpeppe: leetspete1: i agree, i really miss tuples
(20:07:10) leetspete1: Oh, right, two-member.  But there was some nonsense about arrays that I got snagged on, I think I recall.  And then function types.  I have to go back to the top of the file a lot.
(20:07:16) leetspete1: I'm still relatively new to Go.
(20:10:27) leetspete1: sandbender1512: Don't feel bad about that, Ruby confuses its own syntax.  I've been doing it for about ten years, and the parser is still full of surprises.
(20:12:09) sandbender1512: :)
(20:14:45) leetspete1: I'm doing some client stuff in Ruby now, and I have this line visible in acme and it is actually real Ruby:
(20:14:47) leetspete1: id: "tab#{voteid}", :'data-target' => voteid
(20:18:35) rogpeppe: leetspete1: is there a difference between single and double quotes in ruby?
(20:19:51) leetspete1: Yeah, single quotes ignore \ except when it precedes a single quote, and they don't do the string interpolation.  Double-quotes act more like Perl's strings (except that interpolation is done with # instead of raw variable names.)
(20:20:09) rogpeppe: leetspete1: ah, kinda similar to sh
(20:20:28) rogpeppe: leetspete1: not inferno sh, obviously :-)
(20:20:31) leetspete1: You mean the bad one.
(20:20:36) leetspete1: ☺
(20:20:40) rogpeppe: leetspete1: i wouldn't call sh bad
(20:20:53) rogpeppe: leetspete1: (tho obviously i prefer mine :-])
(20:21:27) leetspete1: Well, your sh is responsible for making me weep openly every time I have to write a bash script.
(20:21:41) rogpeppe: leetspete1: ha ha
(20:22:03) ***leetspete1 is only *sort* of kidding.
(20:22:06) rogpeppe: leetspete1: sometimes i wonder about doing a version in go
(20:22:18) rogpeppe: leetspete1: but without dynamic modules, it's not really the same thing
(20:22:44) leetspete1: Yeah, was about to say.  It'd be interesting, but also it'd be missing a big chunk of magic.
(20:23:23) rogpeppe: leetspete1: you could probably do the dynamic modules with rpc over pipes or something
(20:29:28) leetspete1: Hm.  That's interesting, but...
(20:29:44) leetspete1: I'm skeptical that this hyptothetical Go port of sh could...
(20:29:49) leetspete1: hack the gibson:  http://unsane.reverso.be/gibson.sh.txt
(20:38:10) leetspete1: (The joke here, it relies on having seen the hilarious movie Hackers and also the program doesn't quite work unless you start up enough to fill your screen and bang on your keyboard furiously to simulate "movie hacking".)
(20:48:34) leetspete1: rogpeppe: Incidentally, while you're here (if you are still here), I was wondering if cpu vs. rcmd is a historical thing or if I'm missing something.
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(21:29:51) sandbender1512: leetspete1: I was wondering that too... there's a bunch of grid-related things described in the man pages that are... missing/gone/?
(21:32:05) rogpeppe: leetspete1: it's a historical thing
(21:32:18) rogpeppe: leetspete1: i can't actually remember the distinction right now
(21:32:45) rogpeppe: leetspete1: i always used to do cpu manually with listen(1), dial(1) and export(1)
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(21:35:50) leetspete1: rogpeppe: Thanks. I've been using rcmd because cpu seems to not have an equivalent of rcmd's -f.
(21:36:28) leetspete1: I figured it was historical, but sometimes I am surprised. ☺
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(21:43:52) leetspete1: sandbender1512: The grid stuff is a little old, I think.  I've been playing with some shell scripts to get some similar functionality.  You could check out powerman's reglisten, too.
(21:55:40) sandbender1512: yeah I found a post on IPN that outlines a basic setup too, the base functionality is fairly straightforward to setup.... it's the grid/srv/monitor I was mainly interested in playing with :)
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