Conversation with #inferno at Mon Feb  3 17:06:35 2014 on powerman@chat.freenode.net (irc)
(17:06:36) #inferno: Topic for #inferno set by mennis at 17:30:16 on 12/28/09
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(21:57:53) yshurik [~alex@62.92.189.109.customer.cdi.no] entered the room.
(21:58:03) yshurik: Hi all!
(22:10:57) loz: hello
(22:34:51) yshurik: what's new?
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(00:04:06) loz: i'm looking for inferno info in a web, accidentally found logs of this chat, so much need to be read
(00:08:40) loz: yshurik: are you working at lynxline?
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(21:02:10) yshurik: Hi all!
(21:16:27) leetspete1: Heyo!
(21:26:27) yshurik: How is everything going? ;)
(22:23:00) leetspete: yshurik: Not bad, but working with a client.  So I'm a little off and on.  How about you?
(22:27:50) yshurik: fine except that my macbookpro stop working and I lost somewhere SD card with inferno-rpi :) 
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(01:26:03) trsohmers [4c15776f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.21.119.111] entered the room.
(01:26:12) trsohmers: Greetings
(01:26:17) trsohmers: leetspete: ?
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(03:37:41) leetspete1: trsohmers: Greetings!
(03:37:51) trsohmers: hey
(03:38:48) leetspete1: How's bidness?
(03:40:04) trsohmers: Pretty good
(03:46:34) leetspete1: Nice to hear.  I have received your email!  We had to redo our website last night so we would have something moderately less embarrassing to show a client that is excited for "branding", so I'm a bit short on sleep. ☺
(03:56:25) trsohmers: yea, I know that sort of woork schedule
(04:02:01) trsohmers: but yea, I'm trying to find a real reason to try to get Plan 9/Inferno working with the Epiphany
(04:13:05) leetspete1: I'm interested.  Can't seem to determine how to get the emulator running, and have begun to suspect that it didn't come with the SDK.
(04:16:23) leetspete1: Been looking for an excuse to play with the thing.  I noticed there's a 9fans thread on it as well.
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(04:20:21) trsohmers: ill look it up
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(04:26:20) leetspete1: Pardon me for a moment; I've got a situation to handle.  (It is not a serious situation.  It is a mundane chore.  Do not be alarmed.  This is merely a very verbose "brb".)
(04:26:35) trsohmers: No problem
(05:29:38) leetspete1: Apologies!
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(14:25:08) acmeuser: /help
(14:25:10) acmeuser: /me
(14:25:12) acmeuser: ?
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(19:27:09) anth_x: you'll need to stick around longer than that if you want help…
(19:29:41) sandbender1512: heh
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(22:40:33) yshurik: hi all
(22:52:26) sandbender1512: greetings
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(07:07:46) infernjo: powerman: you online?
(07:09:02) infernjo: powerman: your IRC logs seem to have stopped on feb-03... kindly asking if you've stopped logging them. warm regards!
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(08:32:10) powerman: infernjo: looks like irc.freenode.net doesn't work since feb-03, so I've switched to chat.freenode.net and thus logs now stored in different directory which I didn't symlinked to my website yet
(08:39:54) powerman: current logs available here: http://powerman.name/Inferno/inferno@freenode.log2/
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(19:23:35) joesoftware: anyone know if the inferno mailing list is dead or just silent
(19:38:49) anth_x: it's always been relatively low-traffic.
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(20:38:00) leetspete: anth_x: I think it's dead.  The MX record moved to Google and mail started bouncing.
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(21:11:49) anth_x: interesting. i suspect that's an error/oversight. if you've had mail bounced, let charles know.
(21:14:31) leetspete1: I'll try again.  I had planned to send that brainfuck thing to the mailing list "Hey, here's a fun hack, I built x86 executables from inside Inferno" (which MycroftIV said I should just put on the blog anyway) so I haven't tried in a while.
(21:15:03) leetspete1: Maybe it was a temporary thing.
(21:15:47) qrstuv: all things are temporary
(21:16:43) leetspete1: One can only hope that's the case.
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(22:49:05) anth_x: leetspete1: wait… what did you do? when you say "built", did you have a compiler running in inferno, or was this through the os command?
(22:50:24) anth_x: oh, and in case anyone who's not in #plan9 is interested: somebody's giving away G5 Xserves, if you're willing to pick them up. he's in Ithaca, NY. i'm grabbing a few and with ship domestically for Plan9/Inferno people.
(22:50:51) anth_x: (or you can go to NY and get them yourself, or come to Cleveland after I get them and i'll buy you dinner).
(22:51:00) anth_x: http://rebelmouse.com/adamengst
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(23:07:37) yshurik: c compiler for inferno?
(23:07:54) yshurik: or what?
(23:11:37) qrstuv: anth_x, yshurik: http://debu.gs/entries/brainfind-a-stranger-in-the-alps
(23:12:49) yshurik: hehehe
(23:18:12) anth_x: that's pretty neat
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(04:51:18) leetspete1: anth_x: Yeah, technically a compiler for native Inferno that produces x86 executables.  The devil's in the details, though. ☺
(04:56:31) leetspete1: Dante's in the details?
(06:55:21) anth_x: heh.
(06:55:35) anth_x: it's a neat hack. yeah, practical application might be limited, but still neat.
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(09:36:13) Trenatos: Every page I've read online refer to downloading an ISO image from the site in order to install Inferno, but all I found was a zip file that contains the whole thing. Am I missing something? I did get it working using emu wm/wm wm/logon.
(09:36:59) Trenatos: I didn't do any kind of installation, other than unzipping the archive, and cd-ing into the nt/386/bin folder. (Hosted on Win 7)
(09:56:51) Trenatos: Well, it's been fun, I shall continue tomorrow.
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(21:41:34) trenatos: Anyone know what the most common use of Inferno is?
(21:46:38) leetspete1: trenatos: There's scant data.  I use it as a dev environment, for distributed computing; it seems to get used in networking hardware.
(21:47:31) jbrhee1: likewise for me as a dev environment
(21:49:11) qrstuv: i use it as an e-peen supplement
(21:50:45) trenatos: I found some tutorials to get me going last night, seemed pretty neat to be honest, just not sure what it's best used for.
(21:51:06) leetspete1: qrstuv: I don't know if that works.  I usually just get weird looks.
(21:51:17) trenatos: I did find that all the information pointed to downloading an ISO, but on the Vita Nuova website all I found was a zip file.
(21:51:44) leetspete1: Ah, yeah, the ISO is not used any more.
(21:51:55) trenatos: How would you install it on bare metal then?
(21:52:52) leetspete1: You'd need to grab the zip or the tarball, compile a kernel, build a root filesystem with disk/mkfs.
(21:53:15) leetspete1: And sometimes write drivers for your hardware.  ☺
(21:53:21) trenatos: Ah, so you build it on another system, then move it onto the devices harddrive
(21:53:39) leetspete1: Yeah.  It's usually better to start off by running it hosted.
(21:53:54) trenatos: I'm sure, just curious
(21:54:24) trenatos: I did get it working last night, though it took a while, and not a whole lot there by default. You have any links to good tutorials/examples/other?
(21:54:30) leetspete1: So the archives on the site, those are just there to speed up a pull from mercurial to get the latest.
(21:54:38) ***trenatos nods
(21:55:31) trenatos: I'm a programmer, and Inferno looks neat, so I guess I'll be looking into Limbo
(21:55:40) leetspete1: Oh, yeah, there's MJL's stuff, I wrote some stuff, powerman has written some things, Chris Double.  There's lots of documentation, it's just a bit scattered and some of it's dated.
(21:55:55) trenatos: I'm *brand new* to this, those names mean nothing to me  XD
(21:56:26) trenatos: I only found out about Inferno yesterday
(21:56:43) leetspete1: I was checking to see which ones you've read so I knew how much link-spamming to do. ☺
(21:56:44) trenatos: Today I figured I'll pop it onto a second box and look at a couple of networking examples
(21:57:11) trenatos: This is just about it: http://www.resc.rdg.ac.uk/twiki/bin/view/Resc/InfernoTutorial
(21:57:36) trenatos: It's what actually got me up and running, together with a Spanish youtube video (No I don't speak spanish.. lol)
(21:58:30) leetspete1: My stuff:  http://debu.gs/tags/inferno .  Chris Double's:  http://bluishcoder.co.nz/tags/inferno/  MJL's:  http://www.ueber.net/who/mjl/inferno/  powerman's: http://powerman.name/Inferno/ 
(21:59:32) leetspete1: Oh, and Caerwyn's, lemme grab the link...
(21:59:42) leetspete1: http://ipn.caerwyn.com/
(21:59:50) trenatos: This is awesome, bookmarking
(22:00:16) trenatos: From what I understand, no one uses inferno for "normal" work, it's all specialized and runs mostly hosted
(22:00:53) trenatos: But the ease of networking and homogenous system on all devices... It looks really interesting for specialized networked software
(22:01:08) trenatos: How easy does it connect with databases? (MSSQL, MySQL)
(22:01:38) leetspete1: I usually run it hosted, but nearly every interaction with my computers happens through Inferno nowadays.
(22:02:05) leetspete1: That's trickier; I don't think anyone's written a driver for those, but I could be wrong.
(22:02:29) qrstuv: there's an odbc thing no one ever uses
(22:02:57) trenatos: Hmm. I figured that a database would be the easiest way to interact with the world outside of Inferno
(22:03:16) qrstuv: the file system is a database
(22:03:55) trenatos: Yeah but how do I talk with it from the outside world? For example connecting an Inferno server with a database that a webserver can talk to
(22:04:08) trenatos: Sharing data through a database.
(22:04:08) qrstuv: write the code
(22:04:33) trenatos: ..no one has thought of doing this before?
(22:04:53) leetspete1: Or use rawdbfs or something, and export that over 9P so other programs can see it.
(22:05:04) qrstuv: lots of people think of it
(22:05:14) qrstuv: but no one cares enough to do it
(22:06:10) leetspete1: I don't expect it'd be too hard to write drivers for most DBs.  Someone had a Postgres thing, but anth_x seems to have had bad luck using it.
(22:06:59) leetspete1: I think you could do TokyoTyrant/memcache/MongoDB/whatever pretty trivially.  Or port one from Go to Limbo.
(22:07:51) leetspete1: But qrstuv's correct, usually you just use filesystems.
(22:08:11) trenatos: I assume I can write files to the host os?
(22:08:41) leetspete1: Yeah.  The '#U' special device.
(22:08:42) qrstuv: you don't need to assume
(22:08:45) qrstuv: you can read the manual
(22:09:02) qrstuv: start with the intro pages
(22:11:26) leetspete1: 'wm/man 3 fs' will get you the details for whatever OS.
(22:12:08) trenatos: Found something that might be worth looking into: http://mofo.sourceforge.net/projects.html (A Limbo based MySQL library)
(22:12:11) leetspete1: The short version is 'ls #U*/' will show you the root FS on everything except Windows, where you need to do something like 'ls #Uc:/'.
(22:12:24) trenatos: Aha, thanks leetspete1
(22:13:20) leetspete1: Or, rather, you'll need to quote that, because of the #.
(22:13:22) leetspete1: So
(22:13:31) leetspete1: lc '#U*/'
(22:13:36) ***trenatos nods
(22:13:50) trenatos: Do you have links to good sources on learning Limbo?
(22:16:53) leetspete1: There's the big PDF, "Inferno Programming with Limbo".  It's pretty good as a reference.  I think the best way is to skim the book and then jump straight to browsing the source in /appl.
(22:18:45) leetspete1: trenatos: You can get that from here:  http://doc.cat-v.org/inferno/books/inferno_programming_with_limbo/
(22:19:20) trenatos: I just found it, on that adress. Thanks again leetspete1
(22:19:24) leetspete1: Cat-v has some Inferno stuff, notably the man pages.
(22:20:31) trenatos: You've given me links to enough info to keep me busy for a while :)
(22:21:19) leetspete1: Yeah, and you will probably want to browse MJL's bitbucket account, he has a lot of useful stuff.  I'm actually using his IRC client right now.
(22:22:34) trenatos: bitbucket?
(22:22:49) leetspete1: http://bitbucket.org/mjl
(22:23:15) leetspete1: (URL typed from memory, beware.)
(22:23:19) trenatos: Nice!
(22:23:45) trenatos: Oh, right, I have a specific question, is there some equivalent to tab-completion in shell?
(22:24:18) leetspete1: I think MJL's wm/run does that with ^F like Plan 9, but don't quote me on that, I could be hallucinating.
(22:24:45) trenatos: Ok
(22:24:49) leetspete1: Tab-completion, believe it or not, I don't miss.
(22:25:51) leetspete1: The GUI shell, though, has stuff like 'right-click to plumb', and the rules in $home/lib/plumbing set what that does.
(22:26:04) trenatos: Aha
(22:26:30) leetspete1: Like if you do 'lookman acme', and then right-click on 'regexp(6)', the man page will pop up.
(22:26:59) leetspete1: Or double-click one of the lines to highlight it, hold down the middle mouse button, execute 'send'.
(22:27:16) leetspete1: Since it spits things out like this:
(22:27:27) leetspete1: man 6 regexp # regexp(6)
(22:27:51) leetspete1: So it's pretty convenient.
(22:28:07) trenatos: Sounds nice, really nice actually
(22:28:44) leetspete1: Yeah, and really malleable.  It's addictive once you get past the learning curve.
(22:29:19) leetspete1: I've got to run off and do food and get ready for a meeting, unfortunately, but I'll be around, and there's usually someone helpful around.
(22:29:37) trenatos: Allright, thanks for all the help!
(22:30:45) leetspete1: Oh, of note, you'll probably want to hack a few bits of the default plumbing rules, like not recognizing hyphens in man page names, and the default "friendly" text editor and file browser are not exactly useful.
(22:31:19) leetspete1: No problem, I don't mind helping.  I have a vested interest.
(22:31:25) trenatos: Is it possible to resize windows in the gui? I couldn't figure out how
(22:31:26) leetspete1: Later.
(22:31:31) trenatos: Take care!
(22:32:20) leetspete1: Oh, yeah.  You click the button that looks like a maximize button.  You can then either drag the window to resize, or start dragging outside the window and it'll let you draw the window at the desired size.
(22:32:29) trenatos: Got it, thanks!
(22:32:53) leetspete1: MJL has a tiling window manager, too (qwm) if that's your thing.
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(02:34:24) trenatos: I understand that someone ported Go for Plan 9, does it also exist for Inferno?
(03:10:08) trenatos: Here's a stupid question.. How do I make a new file through acme?
(03:18:43) trenatos: I understand how to use the mouse with it, it's surprisingly nice, but can't figure out how to simply make a new file, edit, and save it.
(03:22:54) trenatos: AHA!
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(03:31:40) trenatos: This editor is going to take some getting used to
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(17:29:38) anth_x: leetspete1, qrstuv: for the record, the postgresql thing is working for me.
(17:30:10) anth_x: i had to figure some bits out - it's not documented - and i only have the "simple" version of postgresql's queries going, but that's enough for me.
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(17:57:06) leetspete1: anth_x: Oh, awesome.  
(18:53:54) anth_x: i also don't know what's up with the "complex" query method - that could entirely be operator error.
(18:54:26) anth_x: i'm building something with in… well, it's stalled, but i'll get back to it shortly. i should try to document it as i go.
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(22:52:40) leetspete1: Anyone know why svc/httpd doesn't do forkns or newpgrp or anything?
(22:58:52) qrstuv: maybe it's meant to be done by magic programs
(23:03:06) leetspete1: I'd suspect that they should also do that, but e.g., killing the shell that I started httpd from also kills httpd.
(23:03:26) leetspete1: So I wrap it.
(23:10:03) leetspete1: Maybe something to do with logging or mangling the namespace for a server without restarting it?
(23:10:08) qrstuv: i don't usually like listeners forking things on their own, otherwise i can't run an rstyxd in its namespace
(23:11:07) qrstuv: if they fork the pgrp i have to kill dozens of processes when i want to restart a service instead of killing just one pgrop
(23:12:43) qrstuv: inferno's process management is pretty clumsy though
(23:13:15) qrstuv: i have processes add themselves to the registry when i need to be more delicate
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(00:27:38) leetspete1: qrstuv: Since httpd is a single process that does its own calls to announce/listen, I'd expect that forking the pgrp is less of an issue.
(00:28:25) qrstuv: i usually run it in concert with some other services
(00:28:39) qrstuv: and when i want to kill one, i want to kill them all
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(00:31:49) qrstuv: but i'm getting tired of that way of doing things, so from now on i'm going to select processes with registry queries
(00:41:24) leetspete1: Ah, I see what you mean.
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