Conversation with #inferno at Wed Jun 4 17:24:35 2014 on powerman@chat.freenode.net (irc) (17:24:35) #inferno: Topic for #inferno set by mennis at 17:30:16 on 12/28/09 (17:51:50) Sebboh [~user@fsf/member/Sebboh] entered the room. (17:52:08) Sebboh: Greetings. (17:54:12) Sebboh: I have two readily available environments at work, Windows 7 (native) and VirtualBox (win7 host). Which should I use to try Inferno for the first time? (18:17:53) Sebboh: On the windows path, I downloaded inferno.zip (2011) from vitanuova and ran hg pull; hg update and got two unresolved merges. keyring.h and runt.h. (18:31:12) Sebboh: That was resolved by discarding those local changes. (18:37:15) powerman: Sebboh: I doubt you need to run native Inferno in VirtualBox, just use hosted on Windows, at least to start. (18:38:14) Sebboh: "To keep the system up-to-date, you'll need to fetch updates using Mercurial for Windows, and recompile using the Windows development environment for C." (18:38:41) Sebboh: Which windows development environment for C? Even in 2011, when that quote was written, this was pretty inspecific. (18:40:16) powerman: In 2012 I've tested two working variants: (18:40:56) powerman: first is «Visual C++ 2010 Express» http://www.microsoft.com/visualstudio/en-us/products/2010-editions/visual-cpp-express (about 3GB installed) (18:41:28) powerman: second is ".NET Framework 4" http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=187668 plus «Windows SDK 7.1» https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=8442 (about 800MB installed) (18:41:59) powerman: in second case it's enough to install only this: (18:42:02) powerman: # Windows Native Code Development: (18:42:02) powerman: # Windows Headers and Libraries: (18:42:02) powerman: # [X] Windows Headers (18:42:02) powerman: # [X] x86 Libraries (18:42:02) powerman: # [X] Visual C++ Compilers (18:42:02) powerman: # Redistributable Packages: (18:42:02) powerman: # [X] Microsoft Visual C++ 2010 (18:42:05) Sebboh: What is the purpose of the 65 .exe files in Nt/386/bin in the zip file? (18:42:22) powerman: that was tested on XP 32-bit, Seven 32-bit, Seven 64-bit (18:42:25) Sebboh: ok, thank you. (18:43:29) Sebboh: I want to run Inferno. May I describe what I think I am supposed to do so that you may identify my mistakes? (18:43:43) powerman: some used while compiling inferno, others are tools which can be used outside of inferno (i.e. in host os - windows) - for example, limbo compiler available both as .dis app inside inferno and limbo.exe to use outside, same for mk tool, etc. (18:44:03) powerman: sure (18:47:14) Sebboh: 1. Get .zip file, which contains bootstrap .exes that the hg repo does not contain. 2. hg update -uv. Now you've got the latest, but still have those bins. 2.5 install MS c compiler named above. 3. edit mkconfig. 4. run mk. Now here's my problem... There's no mk.exe in here. ...Nevermind, there it is. ... derp. (18:48:29) powerman: 2. I think that should be hg pull -uv (18:49:16) Sebboh: Saying my problems outloud (even in text) causes an additional set of neurons to fire which frequently help me resolve the problem. I think their purpose is to stop myself from looking stupid.. :) Ah, yes, hg pull -uv (18:50:20) powerman: 3.5 you need to set/append environment variables: (18:50:20) powerman: append to Path: ;C:\inferno\Nt\386\bin (18:50:20) powerman: create INFERNO_ROOT: C:\inferno (18:50:20) powerman: create EMU: -rC:\inferno (18:51:27) powerman: next, you need to use special shortcut to run windows command line with all env vars set correctly: (18:52:40) powerman: on Win7 64-bit, if you go second way (with WinSDK) then you need to copy it shortcut «Windows SDK 7.1 Command Prompt», edit properties of copied shortcut to add extra param: /x86 (because inferno is 32-bit itself) (18:53:10) powerman: in first way (with Visual C++ 2010) I'm not sure how it should be done, but suppose something similar (18:53:50) powerman: 4. use "mk nuke; mk install", not just "mk" (18:54:38) Sebboh: Thanks for 3.5. I've altered INFERNO_ROOT. Does the build try to write to c:\windows or anything like that? I have a local user account that has full admin rights on this workstation, but it's not the same user that I use on a minute to minute basis. for invoking the Windows SDK 7.1 with /x86 argument, thanks. Oh, so... rather than execute mk nuke; mk install in a cmd.exe session, I am to call mk from .. a special Windows SDK command (18:54:38) Sebboh: prompt. Eh? (18:54:55) powerman: no, it write only inside inferno's dir (18:55:07) Sebboh: kk (18:55:41) powerman: yep. special prompt. normal cmd.exe doesn't work because it doesn't set env vars to call C compiler. ask M$ why (19:19:07) Sebboh: I am attempting to use this link http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=8279 for the «Windows SDK (19:19:07) Sebboh: 7.1» (19:20:45) Sebboh: (web install vs ISO download.) (19:57:29) powerman: Sebboh: any luck? (20:34:35) Sebboh: Sorry I keep getting distracted by actual work. ;) (20:36:43) Sebboh left the room (quit: Quit: reboot). 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(22:38:18) yshurik1 [~Adium@62.92.189.109.customer.cdi.no] entered the room. (22:40:26) qrstuv left the room (quit: Quit: jmk added reentrancy for threads). (22:53:41) aksr left the room (quit: Ping timeout: 264 seconds). (23:05:11) yshurik1 left the room (quit: Quit: Leaving.). (23:14:25) Sebboh [~user@fsf/member/Sebboh] entered the room. (23:16:19) Sebboh: It worked fine, powerman, after I finally got the windows sdk 7.1 to install (failed due to newer version of some vc redist cruft already being installed). I did have to edit mkconfig, but no problem there. mk install has completed apparently successfully. (23:16:52) powerman: cool (23:20:57) bbarker: i've noticed something interesting with cygwin. while trying to change the permission of some files created by acme-sac ($home/lib/profile), I ran in to trouble (23:22:02) bbarker: this would happen even if I only did chmod +w profile; chmod -w profile', while acme or inferno wasn't running (there was no write permission by default) (23:22:14) bbarker: upon trying to start acme or inferno again, I would get permission denied (23:24:03) bbarker: or more specifically, "Access is denied" from inferno's sh (23:25:35) Sebboh: How do I start this thing, after a successful mk install? (23:25:43) Sebboh: On Windows. 7. (23:26:18) Sebboh: I executed iemu.exe via the command prompt and got some sort of a shell. (23:26:41) Code_Man` left the room (quit: Remote host closed the connection). (23:26:46) bbarker: looks like cygwin does something funny to the permissions (23:26:49) Sebboh: "Acme: can't read /chan/plumb.edit: fd out of range or not open" (23:26:53) bbarker: so anyway, don't use cygwin i guess (23:27:43) Sebboh: bbarker: cygwin does a lot of funny things with permissions. :) But they are generally all known issues that have been resolved or have available solutions.. Cygwin has been around for a few years. (23:29:43) bbarker: Sebboh, yeah, i've never run in to problems before and i've used it for years (23:29:47) Sebboh: I'd recommend this troubleshooting strategy: create a file in a cygwin bash terminal via `touch myfile`. Then create a file via acme. Close everything down and compare the two files via the windows security widget. This should be revealing! (23:30:26) Sebboh: whoa, acme is running on my other monitor and I just failed to notice. Neat. (23:31:43) Sebboh: I'm gonna need a 'maximize' button for the Inferno window, folks. :) (23:32:48) bbarker: Sebboh, i just use the -g switch (23:32:51) bbarker: seems ok for me (23:33:30) bbarker: my shortcut is C:\inferno\Nt\386\bin\emu.exe -g1900x950 (23:36:03) Sebboh: why is my executable named iemu.exe? (23:36:52) Sebboh: oh, I have that one, too. (23:37:46) Sebboh: This is like Linux circa 2001. :P (23:38:04) Sebboh: This is like Linux circa 2001! :) (23:41:13) powerman: no, it isn't like linux. at all. (23:42:07) bbarker: yeah, i have to agree haha (23:42:12) bbarker: i remember using plan9 in 2001 (23:42:18) bbarker: and it was very different even then (23:43:00) bbarker: well, i'm pretty happy, i finally have a nice acme config set up (for a beginner) after combining acme-sac/inferno/ and a script that emulates middle mouse clicks like in plan9 (23:43:29) bbarker: though it seems i'm using the smallest font size available (am I the only one that uses 6 pt font?) (23:44:01) Sebboh: ... Sorry, powerman. I was referring to something you can't see right now: I'm typing random commands and trying random command line options. I generally don't do that in environments that I'm familiar with! (23:49:16) powerman: Sebboh: It may look similar at a glance, but it's a mistake to think that way. While Inferno have ls/ps/grep and shell pipes they isn't meant to be used as main tools like in *NIX. Real Inferno tools are all file-servers and their in/out are (pseudo)files, not pipe. (23:53:06) Sebboh: But you're not even reading my text. We're not talking about the same thing. I know that plan9 isn't unix. I came here because I read this line "Who needs shell history when you can grep /dev/text, edit the output, and click 'Send'?" (in this document: http://docs.huihoo.com/plan9/Plan9.pdf) That being said, what IS similar is the feeling I had a few minutes ago when staring at a terminal and wondering what to type--I said something (23:53:07) Sebboh: like "I haven't felt this way since 2001!". Probably I should have just said that. Anyway, I'm sorry that you have to deal with a lot of people coming in here and comparing plan9/inferno to GNU/Linux, but I'm not one of them. (23:55:22) powerman: well, many years ago I was one of such people. ☺ (23:57:09) bbarker: Sebboh, yes, I know you're feeling, going to take a while to learn plan9/inferno as well as i know unix oses (23:57:25) bbarker: *your (00:03:18) powerman: to be honest, while ideas implemented in inferno shell are really cool, and things like working with history with "send" works, overall usability of inferno shell is much worse than bash/zsh. and some use ugly hacks like running emu under rlwrap http://utopia.knoware.nl/~hlub/uck/rlwrap/#rlwrap just to have usable command line editing (00:05:10) powerman: others implement inferno tools like wmrun https://bitbucket.org/mjl/wmrun to have history in shell (00:10:55) powerman: another option (if you didn't like to write code in acme) is use special mkfiles https://code.google.com/p/inferno-opt-skel/ which let you easily develop both inside inferno and outside (i.e. using your favorite editor in host os) - with ability to compile, build and run tests from host os or within inferno (00:14:41) powerman: (I'm afraid latest project was developed with "host os == linux" in mind, so it may not work in windows - but I'll accept patch if you'll fix this :)) (00:19:40) Sebboh: Nice, I had already wondered to myself if I could use rlwrap with this shell. Really, I'll probably install plan9 on hardware sometime. But I figured a quick inferno install (ha) on my work pc would be fun in the meantime. It has been some fun. I started wm.dis and I'm exploring. (00:28:18) Sebboh: Mouse chording sounds timing dependent. Your thoughts? (00:32:13) Sebboh: Is rio not wm ? (00:33:45) bbarker: Sebboh, it is not (00:34:25) bbarker: Sebboh, as to chording, i haven't tried it much yet, but i worry that I need a thinkpad :) (00:35:48) Sebboh: I have a thinkpad, but that's my debian box. ;) Well, I've been thinking about putting Arch on there. (00:42:03) bbarker: at least you can use plan9port on it (00:42:08) bbarker: i can't even get linux on this lenovo (00:42:30) bbarker: technically my wife's, but she's taken over my good linux system =( (00:43:27) bbarker: on the bright side, forces me to learn a bit of inferno i suppose (00:55:06) Sebboh: whelp cya all later. (00:55:10) Sebboh left the room (quit: Quit: nini). 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(20:59:21) loz1 left the room (quit: Ping timeout: 240 seconds). (22:25:11) aksr left the room (quit: Ping timeout: 252 seconds). (22:26:29) aksr [~aksr@unaffiliated/aksr] entered the room. (22:36:38) aksr left the room (quit: Ping timeout: 240 seconds). (22:45:29) aksr [~aksr@unaffiliated/aksr] entered the room. (23:01:14) aksr left the room (quit: Ping timeout: 252 seconds). (23:13:05) aksr [~aksr@unaffiliated/aksr] entered the room. (23:20:36) aksr left the room (quit: Ping timeout: 260 seconds). (23:24:49) Code_Man` left the room (quit: Remote host closed the connection). (23:28:46) yshurik1 left the room (quit: Quit: Leaving.). (01:08:20) Code_Man` [~Code_Man@2a02:1205:5059:a3a0:223:54ff:fe38:82c2] entered the room. (01:25:32) Code_Man` left the room (quit: Ping timeout: 265 seconds). (02:18:39) qrstuv: wow (02:18:53) qrstuv: making an audio-pulse driver turned out to be easier than audio-alsa (05:36:45) newmanbe_ [~newmanbe@ma.sdf.org] entered the room. (06:17:00) newmanbe_ is now known as newmanbe (07:40:57) aksr [~aksr@unaffiliated/aksr] entered the room. (10:06:48) Code_Man` [~Code_Man@58-154.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] entered the room. (10:20:11) bjorkintosh: qrstuv, for inferno? (11:05:10) qrstuv: naturally (11:06:07) aap_ left the room (quit: *.net *.split). (11:06:07) yiyus left the room (quit: *.net *.split). (11:06:31) yiyus [1242712427@je.je.je] entered the room. (11:07:30) aap_ [~aap@85.183.44.54] entered the room. (11:58:38) leetspete left the room (quit: *.net *.split). (11:58:38) aksr left the room (quit: *.net *.split). (11:58:39) strmpnk left the room (quit: *.net *.split). (11:58:39) bjorkintosh left the room (quit: *.net *.split). (11:58:39) fgudin left the room (quit: *.net *.split). (11:58:39) ikrabbe left the room (quit: *.net *.split). (11:58:40) vpm left the room (quit: *.net *.split). (11:58:40) doublec left the room (quit: *.net *.split). (11:58:40) yiyus left the room (quit: *.net *.split). 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(12:04:40) pfalleno1 [~pfallenop@95.141.35.235] entered the room. (12:04:40) jbrhee [~jess@cpe-104-33-95-25.socal.res.rr.com] entered the room. (12:04:40) fdd [~fdd@unaffiliated/fdd] entered the room. (12:04:40) bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] entered the room. (12:04:40) qrstuv [~tw@50.103.228.19] entered the room. (12:04:40) yshurik [~yshurik@62.92.189.109.customer.cdi.no] entered the room. (12:04:40) bbarker [uid33544@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gpbnocgcyzwoqkfk] entered the room. (12:04:40) doublec [~doublec@gateway/tor-sasl/doublec] entered the room. (12:04:40) newmanbe [~newmanbe@ma.sdf.org] entered the room. (12:04:40) aksr [~aksr@unaffiliated/aksr] entered the room. (12:04:40) yiyus [1242712427@je.je.je] entered the room. (12:04:40) leetspete1 [~none@cpe-104-33-95-25.socal.res.rr.com] entered the room. (15:19:23) aksr left the room (quit: Ping timeout: 252 seconds). (15:29:57) aksr [~aksr@unaffiliated/aksr] entered the room. 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