Conversation with #inferno at Thu Oct 16 02:04:41 2014 on powerman@chat.freenode.net (irc) (02:04:41) #inferno: Topic for #inferno set by mennis at 17:30:16 on 12/28/09 (02:33:34) Miko_ left the room (quit: Ping timeout: 255 seconds). (05:38:03) doublec_ left the room (quit: Ping timeout: 264 seconds). (05:38:22) doublec [~doublec@gateway/tor-sasl/doublec] entered the room. (06:44:16) sam_-d [~sam_-d@2602:30a:2e99:dcb0:cf4:e0ff:ce11:8d60] entered the room. (06:45:18) sam_-d left the room (quit: Client Quit). (08:02:34) _sl left the room (quit: Remote host closed the connection). (08:08:35) _sl [~stanleyli@mars2.inri.net] entered the room. (08:15:41) _sl left the room (quit: Ping timeout: 260 seconds). (08:16:53) _sl [~stanleyli@mars2.inri.net] entered the room. (08:21:24) _sl left the room. (09:33:33) Gegemon [~ynv@mx1.airis.ru] entered the room. (10:01:34) baux [~none@out-pix.zucchetti.com] entered the room. (10:48:53) Miko_ [~miko@xdsl-78-34-236-63.netcologne.de] entered the room. (13:28:49) Miko_ left the room (quit: Ping timeout: 260 seconds). (13:43:06) Miko__ [~miko@xdsl-78-34-236-63.netcologne.de] entered the room. (14:28:52) Miko__ left the room (quit: Ping timeout: 240 seconds). (15:05:31) Miko__ [~miko@155-153.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] entered the room. (15:13:06) Miko__ left the room (quit: Ping timeout: 240 seconds). (16:10:20) Gegemon left the room (quit: Quit: Leaving.). (18:02:27) Miko__ [~miko@xdsl-78-34-236-63.netcologne.de] entered the room. (18:51:08) _sl [~stanleyli@mars2.inri.net] entered the room. (19:07:31) _sl left the room (quit: Read error: Connection reset by peer). (19:09:27) qrstuv left the room (quit: Ping timeout: 245 seconds). (19:16:06) qrstuv [bootes@50.103.227.70] entered the room. (19:16:36) baux left the room (quit: Remote host closed the connection). (19:59:52) Miko_ [~miko@xdsl-87-79-58-50.netcologne.de] entered the room. (20:03:45) Miko__ left the room (quit: Ping timeout: 272 seconds). (22:11:41) _sl [~stanleyli@mars2.inri.net] entered the room. (22:13:28) doublec left the room (quit: Remote host closed the connection). (22:13:40) doublec [~doublec@gateway/tor-sasl/doublec] entered the room. (22:27:58) redblue [buenasnoch@159-101.sh.cgocable.ca] entered the room. (22:28:23) orangegreen left the room (quit: Ping timeout: 258 seconds). (23:05:06) Miko_ left the room (quit: Read error: Connection reset by peer). (23:12:13) Miko_ [~miko@xdsl-87-79-137-103.netcologne.de] entered the room. (00:28:11) Miko_: Can one start a inferno process, dump the state of the VM into a image an resume it later? (00:28:30) Miko_: or even continue it in a different inferno instance? (00:29:04) powerman: In general - I doubt. (00:30:08) Miko_: I think smalltalk can do that - but it think it's a uniqe feature (00:30:32) qrstuv: it's not unique (00:31:49) Miko_: what system does support such a thing? (00:32:42) qrstuv: many systems with process migration can do that (00:34:13) Miko_: Oh, process migration seems to be the lemma. I only know about Openmosix and that dead. Way Deader than inferno. (00:36:51) powerman: I may be wrong, but check Erlang, it may be able to do this. Also some cloud hosting may provide a feature to migrate VM with any OS, and you may have Inferno inside it. :) (00:39:07) powerman: Also while Inferno doesn't support this out of box for any process, it's ease enough to implement inferno app which is able to migrate between different servers in this way. (00:39:39) Miko_: So, you suggest to move the whole OS (or emu) ? (00:40:52) Miko_: That sounds like the easiest way. (00:41:23) Miko_: Currently I still have a number of unsolved/unclear problems (00:43:23) Miko_: Two OS instances that pass processes to each other would proably be a more elegant solution. OTOH that seems a largly unsolve problem (00:43:42) powerman: That depends on your task. If you'll have to run VMware/VirtualBox, then run Linux inside it, then run emu inside it to be able to freeze/move Inferno app to another server (and that move will require moving full Linux image instead of moving inferno app's image - I won't call it easiest way. (00:44:48) powerman: But if you need general solution that might be the only way to go. (00:45:21) Miko_: In the other way, I'd have to move the state of the programm. But I'd also haved to move all the changes to to filesystem that task has already done. (00:45:31) powerman: If you just need your own custom app to have this freeze/move feature - it should be ease enough to develop such app in Limbo. (00:46:15) Miko_: On the other side I'd have to syncronice that filesystem again and continue. (00:47:10) powerman: This is because Inferno make it very easy to replicate environment/namespace of your app on any server, and because most of app's state you can keep in files (dymanic or static, doesn't matter) which will be replicated within namespace for you by Inferno. (00:48:10) Miko_: That's why I though Inferno might me the right choice. (00:48:57) powerman: So, to move app to another server you'll have to implement something similar to "live upgrade" feature in nginx - old process should stop reading input data, just finish current requests and exit, which new process (started on another server but using same namespace) will start processing new input data. (00:49:16) powerman: s/which/while/ (00:49:30) Miko_: But If I have to be able explicitly safe the state of my programm at any time anyway, Inferno buy me a nice remote file system, but I still have to do the hard part. (00:50:31) powerman: That depends on where/how you keep that state. In Inferno you usually keep it in (dynamic) files, which should simplify this task a lot. (00:54:44) Miko_: The idea is a user starts a instance of a programm. Let's say it's a text processor (it's nothing like that - That's just to illustrate my point). The User Changes Files, reads (remote) files, changes the state of the program. Then the user Get's a network connection (If they had always internet I'd just use a remote desktop) and migrates that program to a server. (00:55:31) Miko_: On the server the program needs the ability to keep on running. And It need the capability to be migratd back. (00:56:36) Miko_: I though of writing my own JVM that keeps track of file system operation and that can dump a image. (00:57:07) Miko_: But then I tought that this should be something for distributed oses. (00:57:59) Miko_: But i don't think inferno was ever intended for that - I don't think anything was ever intended for that. (00:58:16) powerman: It's not that simple in general. Besides open files, there are network connections, current time, user and his groups, PID, etc. (00:59:58) powerman: When you migrate full VM like VMware main thing which change is network connections, but you can easily enough keep them by modifying routing and without changing server's IP. (01:00:51) powerman: When you migrate only some process from one already running OS into another - a lot of such things will change and you can't avoid this (another server mean another IP, PID, etc.). (01:02:23) powerman: I think only exceptions from this are functional languages with pure functions without side effects, where you can migrate even only some functions of any app, not full app. (01:04:01) Miko_: Well, I could write a Programm that has a state (that is migrated) and only operates on things that are migrated (the filesystem). (01:04:37) Miko_: Not sure, but I think I could just unbind the /dev/ tree and these problem should be solved (01:05:47) powerman: Yeah, if it's not a general question, but some specific app, then there is a good chance it will be easier to implement this migration feature in Inferno. But it still will require some support in your app. (01:06:34) Miko_: Well, this seems a harder problem than I thought (01:06:50) Miko_: maybe I try to solve the wrong problem (01:06:55) powerman: That's why it isn't already implemented everywhere. :) (01:07:24) Miko_: As you mention pure functional languesa i thought about urbit (01:07:48) Miko_: But if urbit is the answer the question was proably wrong (01:08:23) Miko_: If the question was not about "How to become the Uberhister?" (01:08:58) Miko_: And I don't know anything about urbit, and it seems to be only partially practical. (01:09:11) Miko_: But, well thanks for the insights. (01:24:20) pfallenop left the room (quit: Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 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