Conversation with #inferno at Wed Aug 10 18:51:00 2016 on powerman@chat.freenode.net (irc)
(18:51:00) #inferno: Topic for #inferno set by anth at 19:45:51 on 04/07/15
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(13:27:19) doublec: I read that it's possible to combine the emulator and limbo apps into a single binary for a platform. Is there a pointer on how to do this?
(13:36:24) powerman: My article in Russian https://geektimes.ru/post/43180/ (probably using google translate should be enough to get main hints) plus I remember it was discussed few times in maillist.
(13:37:56) doublec: powerman: thanks!
(13:42:49) powerman: article describe how to release standalone app, but as an archive with several files, not just single binary. to turn that into single binary you'll have to do one more step: find file in inferno sources which describe contents of root fs available when emu starts (i.e. before it'll mount /usr/inferno as root fs) and add your app and required libs there plus make sure it'll be started by default by emuinit.dis (I've did that before, but not sure is this was described in one of articles)
(13:43:24) powerman: and rebuild emu then, of course
(13:46:45) powerman: actually that was mentioned in first comment to that article :)
(13:51:23) doublec: Thanks I'll play around with it. Google translate did a good enough job on that article to understand it.
(13:52:01) doublec: I wonder if you can build emu-g with musl c library to get a completely static executable
(14:23:12) doublec: success! I had to add a conf file in 'emu/Linux' based on 'emu' to add the dis file and dependancies
(14:23:23) doublec: then: mk CONF=foo
(14:23:29) doublec: where foo was my new conf file
(14:23:41) doublec: That produced an "o.foo" that I could run
(14:25:19) powerman: :)
(14:26:59) hiro_: 12:52 doubl I wonder if you can build emu-g with musl c library to get a completely static executable
(14:27:04) hiro_: doublec: please make it work :)
(14:27:23) hiro_: doublec: it's also important to us because we want a statically compiled drawterm!
(14:27:34) hiro_: doublec: i tried, but only with the normal linux libc
(14:27:43) doublec: hiro_: I'll give it a try tomorrow - the main complication will be how good muslc's 32 bit support is
(14:27:47) hiro_: awesome :)
(14:28:02) doublec: getting static binaries out of glibc is almost impossible sadly
(14:28:04) hiro_: i'll await the report. if it works we'll do the same for drawterm :)
(14:28:14) hiro_: doublec: yeah, so i noticed haha
(14:28:34) hiro_: doublec: i just gave up cause i don't even want to try and pretend i have a chance understanding all that dlopen bullshit
(14:29:03) hiro_: doublec: i wondered also if it's possible at *all* cause you need to link against some form of X lib
(14:29:20) hiro_: doublec: but i guess on a musl system it might all work better :)
(15:09:42) doublec: hiro_: I got most of it building with musl - some link errors due to not having xlib 32 bit static libraries on my system
(15:09:47) doublec: hiro_: I'll dive into it more tomorrow
(15:23:30) hiro_: doublec: ah nice
(15:23:38) hiro_: doublec: but these xlib 32 bit static libraries exist at least? :)
(18:28:21) leetspete1: That's where I got held up.  Attempting to build a .a for libxcb.
(18:28:27) leetspete1: (I think it was libxcb.)
(18:28:49) leetspete1: But there was an X lib that I couldn't compile statically.
(18:29:21) leetspete1: (Probably worth noting that I was using GNU libc; I hadn't attempted it with musl.)
(20:42:33) hiro_: leetspete1: ok, we tried the same then.
(20:42:40) hiro_: i don't know how musl based distros do it...
(21:14:50) leetspete1: A pile of hacks, like every other distro.
(21:15:07) leetspete1: I wonder if you could link against one of the other X servers, like tinyx or something.
(21:15:39) leetspete1: I will look at the build process for a static distro when I get the time.
(21:15:58) leetspete1: (Unless hiro_ or doublec gets to it first.)
(21:16:07) leetspete1: Because I've been wanting this for a while.
(21:20:15) hiro_: great
(21:20:19) hiro_: let's make it a race
(21:20:23) hiro_: the first one looses :P
(21:22:47) leetspete1: ha, deal.  You'll get a head start, I have been up all night fixing scarily obvious bugs in payroll software.
(21:23:23) leetspete1: And I got the rest of the day to continue, so I'm in no shape to wrestle with X or attempt to write anything good.
(21:23:38) hiro_: crap. at least you'll get something out of it i'm sure
(21:23:59) hiro_: tame the bugs, may they give you lots of income.
(21:25:01) leetspete1: Ha, thanks.  Now that the baby coders are awake, I will spend a chunk of the day arguing with them about whether bugs are supposed to be in the code.
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(08:57:18) doublec: I've got emu building statically but when I run it malloc returns NULL and it panics. Currently tracking down why.
(08:57:48) doublec: The other utilities that get built are static and they run fine
(09:03:33) doublec: That seems to be because sbrk in musl is returning -1
(09:03:36) ***doublec investigates
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(00:37:53) david_boddie: Does anyone have a good recipe for creating a bootable Inferno disk image?
(00:45:10) doublec: david_boddie: maybe this https://umdrive.memphis.edu/blstuart/htdocs/inf_native.html
(00:54:52) david_boddie: doublec: Thanks. I managed to build a kernel and floppy boot disk, but really have no idea how to turn that into a hard disk image.
(00:56:30) david_boddie: The companion guide to that one worked (https://umdrive.memphis.edu/blstuart/htdocs/inf_nat_inst.html) but it uses prebuilt binaries and I'd like to do it from source.
(00:57:14) david_boddie: doublec: Thanks for publishing those articles about Inferno, by the way.
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(01:15:06) doublec: david_boddie: np, I hope to do more. I've not tried the native inferno yet.
(01:21:24) david_boddie: I'm still trying to get a good basic understanding of what a standard system looks like.
(01:22:04) david_boddie: At the moment, I'm experimenting with running emu from within a separate directory to the inferno-os sources directory.
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(11:02:41) Winter: Hi, I'm fairly new to Inferno and I'm somewhat confused, I downloaded Inferno from the BitBucket inferno-os repository, and there's... oddities in my system.
(11:03:10) Winter: Most of the man pages don't overlap with what I have, for example the commands for charon -usessl don't work.
(11:03:43) Winter: There's commands (like B), that simply don't work. Specifically B says that exec does not exist.
(11:04:22) Winter: I'm not certain I understand why this is the case? Is this normal for Inferno?
(11:04:41) Winter: I forgot to mention that I've also downloaded a copy from the Vita Nouvo downloads page.
(11:05:04) Winter: It has the same problems
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(11:40:38) qrstuv: these bug reports suck
(11:41:40) qrstuv: tell verbatim what you did, what you expected to happen, and verbatim what actually happened
(12:01:11) Winter: It wasn't intended as a bug report, merely asking whether such inconsistencies are common.
(12:01:29) Winter: A few off the top of my head. There is no documentation for Inferno sed at all.
(12:01:36) Winter: Not that I've found anyway.
(12:02:23) Winter: It seems to be subtly different from Plan 9's sed, one of the commandline options are different. Not entirely certain what it does.
(12:03:20) Winter: I found a file /dis/B.dis, which when it's run complains about "exec failed: No such file or directory".
(12:04:10) Winter: I found the sam man page from Plan 9 refers to it, though I'm not certain what it's doing in Inferno since, as far as I can tell, Inferno does not have sam.
(12:04:42) Winter: Also not certain why it's calling exec as it doesn't seem to exist on Inferno either.
(12:06:07) Winter: Mostly the reason I'm asking however, is because I'm trying to ascertain whether these are issues that I need to fix, or whether I'm just stupid.
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(12:09:28) Bunbun: Freenode kicked me, something about Winter already in use.
(12:09:58) Bunbun: Anyways, the question about what I expect to happen doesn't make sense. This is the first time I'm running Inferno, I don't know what to expect yet.
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(12:43:35) doublec: Bunbun: I believe B is only used in acme editor?
(12:43:48) ***doublec fires up inferno
(12:44:24) Bunbun: Actually I believe it's used with sam, I haven't seen it referenced in the acme man page yet, though I haven't read the entire thing.
(12:44:41) doublec: Bunbun: documentation for inferno (ie. the man pages) within the system should be consistent
(12:44:55) Bunbun: Ah, thank you for that. :)
(12:45:19) Bunbun: What about the missing man pages?
(12:45:29) Bunbun: For example, there's no man page for sed?
(12:46:01) doublec: Bunbun: ok, you got me there, that one is missing :)
(12:46:50) doublec: Bunbun: I think the man page for acme basically goes something like "Acme uses sam commands in places"
(12:46:51) Bunbun: Okay, so what I'm observing isn't unusual. That's good to know, I was wondering whether I'm missing something or messed up something.
(12:46:55) doublec: Bunbun: which is where B comes from
(12:47:11) doublec: But no documentation for sam of course
(12:47:19) doublec: I remember struggling with that myself
(12:47:27) Bunbun: B is only used for sending commands to the sam editor though as far as I can tell from the Plan 9 pages.
(12:47:29) doublec: https://bluishcoder.co.nz/2013/06/11/editing-remote-files-with-acme-in-inferno-os.html
(12:47:43) doublec: I had to use the sam reference for plan 9 to work out what B did
(12:48:39) Bunbun: Oooh, I think I understand now. It's not suppose to be called from the commandline at all perhaps, but rather from acme itself. That might well explain the strange reference to exec.
(12:48:46) Bunbun: In the error message that is.
(12:48:51) doublec: Bunbun: correct
(12:50:26) Bunbun: Okay, thank you very much, that actually helps a huge amount. Another question out of curiosity, all the code and references I found online from people are really old and very few in number. Is the community really that small?
(12:50:46) doublec: Bunbun: I think the community is quiet
(12:51:02) doublec: Bunbun: there's a mailing list, but it's quiet. Ditto with the subreddit.
(12:51:24) doublec: Bunbun: I've always got help in irc here though
(12:51:45) doublec: Bunbun: what tempted you to try inferno?
(12:53:36) Bunbun: Well, I started to get the notion that I wanted to write my own OS (well, browser at first really) since everything I've used before sucks really badly. It's really sad how terrible most software is actually. Then I noticed Plan 9 and the conceptual base for it seemed really cool. Then I came across Oberon, which really cemented my desire to code my own OS.
(12:54:29) Bunbun: I didn't like the Oberon language though and would have needed extensive customizations. Then I came across Inferno and at present from what I've seen it'll require a lot of work, but I suspect I'm going to make it my main OS.
(12:55:23) Bunbun: There's also a couple of projects that I'm not sure I can actually implement in anything else. So I'm exploring Inferno to see whether I can make it into an OS I actually like. And building the projects I want to build.
(12:55:42) doublec: Bunbun: I should point you to mjl's repository of limbo code then https://bitbucket.org/mjl/
(12:55:57) doublec: Bunbun: it has lots of good stuff 
(12:56:35) doublec: Bunbun: http server, vnc, etc
(12:56:57) Bunbun: Thanks, I have actually found it already. Very cool stuff that he's done. I'm actually making vixen work at the moment since so far I've been learning Limbo using cat and sed. :P
(12:56:58) doublec: useful if you're planning on using inferno as a mostly full time OS
(12:57:04) doublec: cool
(13:00:04) Bunbun: I've got a question about Charon. The Charon on my system does not match the local documentation either. Most obviously being that there's no home button. But also in that I can't seem to get SSL to work with it. Is this a known issue?
(13:01:30) Bunbun: I tried both updating it's config, and calling it from the commandline with "charon -usessl v2", which I believe is the correct convention as I tested it with the "starturl" option which did in fact work.
(13:06:29) doublec: Bunbun: good question, I don't know why ssl is not working
(13:06:55) ***doublec tries
(13:08:22) doublec: "error writing to host: file does not exist" weird
(13:10:26) Bunbun: Yeah, also thought so, was quite puzzled by it at first. Inferno is probably the most confusing system when just learning it that I've come across. :P
(13:14:22) doublec: I wonder if it doesn't like some of the newer certs
(13:14:34) ***doublec looks for an old ssl site
(13:14:55) Bunbun: Yeah, I suspect it might be a TLS issue rather than an SSL one.
(13:15:38) doublec: or it doesn't support sni
(13:16:57) doublec: It's failing on sites it used to work on but I don't know if that's because they've upgraded their ssl or I've upgraded inferno
(13:17:08) ***doublec tries an older build
(13:17:40) Bunbun: SNI is part of the TLS standard though, and I read about someone saying they wanted to port Plan 9's TLS implementation if I'm not much mistaken.
(13:50:52) doublec: I've enabled debugging in the ssl library and looking
(13:52:03) doublec: fatal: handshake failure
(13:55:25) doublec: Bunbun: "unable to negotiate an acceptable set of security parameters given the options available"
(13:57:55) Bunbun: Hmm, I wonder why that is. Does it say whether the error occurred on the client or host side?
(14:01:56) doublec: Bunbun: http://pastebin.com/6gwFZ0pX
(14:03:45) doublec: I'm thinking there's no compatible cipher suite
(14:04:00) Bunbun: Why are the before and after encrypt records the same? 
(14:04:36) Bunbun: This actually looks like there's _no_ SSL available.
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(14:06:00) Bunbun: Doesn't the OS normally provide crypto on Inferno?
(14:09:55) doublec: No, Inferno does it's on ssl crypto
(14:09:59) doublec: s/on/own/
(14:10:56) doublec: So we're sending our cipher suites to the server in the ClientHello
(14:11:02) doublec: It's responding that it can't find a compatible one
(14:12:30) Bunbun: That's kind of what I meant, that SSL is handled on an OS level by Inferno. That's strange though as I was under the impression that the SSL library had already been ported.
(14:12:42) Bunbun: I'll have a look and see whether I can find where it was mention.
(14:16:38) doublec: So the 15 3 0 0 2 28 the server responds is an alert message in response to the handshake
(14:17:09) doublec: 15 = alert, 3 0 = ssl version, 0 2 = length, 2 = severity (fatal), 28 = handshake failure
(14:17:14) doublec: such a descriptive message
(14:19:06) Bunbun: Hmm, yeah I've come up with ten possible meanings for that, not sure what it's doing.
(14:26:32) doublec: ok, got further now
(14:26:48) doublec: My server was only accepting tls 1, 1.1, 1.2. I added sslv3 and now it's past the handshake.
(14:27:04) doublec: error now is unsupported cipher
(14:31:37) doublec: Now it's probably dying on the fact that all the certs on the net are now sha256, not sha1
(14:32:54) Bunbun: Is this the hash cipher or the... "stream" cipher? (sorry, tired, I'll have to go soon).
(14:35:57) doublec: It's successfully getting the server certificate then failing after that with "unsupported cipher". I'm not sure exactly what it's referring to.
(14:36:03) doublec: I'll do some more debugging tomorrow.
(14:36:18) doublec: Basically I think the ssl implementation is to old
(14:36:37) doublec: when the web moved from sslv3->tls1 and depracated sha1 certs a lot of old clients stopped working
(14:37:03) Bunbun: Yeah, I've also only seen references to RC4, which has also been phased out.
(14:37:33) doublec: right
(14:37:44) Bunbun: I need to go sleep though as I'm not tracking anymore. Thank's a lot for all your help, it's much appreciated. :)
(14:37:59) doublec: np, sorry it wasn't successful!
(14:41:10) Bunbun: It's not a problem, I was actually most helped by the other things you did. Having a browser is nice, knowing how to use Inferno is nicer. :)
(14:41:16) doublec: I posted to the mailing list about it anyway
(14:42:36) Bunbun: Cool. :) Night.
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(19:33:01) Na: doublec: Here's the requested list of ciphersuites from one of Charon's ClientHellos. They look... maybe not so secure http://pastebin.com/DNCCrnmv
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(00:02:50) doublec: Na: yes, they're all ancient sadly
(00:04:01) doublec: Na: even the inferno auth and encryption system uses rc4
(00:13:39) leetspete1: How hard do you think it'd be to merge Plan 9's libsec into Inferno?
(00:17:00) leetspete1: I don't imagine the API is incompatible.  Most(?) of the effort would probably be adding stuff to the SSL device.
(00:18:58) leetspete1: (Just speculating; I'm working right now.  Don't believe a word I say.)
(00:19:00) doublec: leetspete1: it's probably not a lot of work to port/merge it
(00:30:28) leetspete1: Looks like a sort of minimal amount of Limbo would be required, but a very cursory look indicates that it's indeed not much work.
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(14:32:30) fnodeuser: Received CTCP 'VERSION' (to #inferno) from fnodeuser
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