Conversation with #inferno at Tue Oct 21 10:03:35 2008 on powerman-asdf@irc.freenode.net (irc)
(10:03:35) #inferno: The topic for #inferno is: Inferno and Limbo | Website: http://www.vitanuova.com/inferno/index.html | Documentation: http://www.vitanuova.com/inferno/docs.html | Wiki: http://canto.hopto.org/wiki/1/index.html | Tutorial: http://www.resc.rdg.ac.uk/twiki/bin/view/Resc/InfernoTutorial | Mailing list archives: http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.os.inferno.general
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(11:39:32) mjl-: morning
(11:39:54) mjl-: i found one case that make it look like wm/irc wasn't handling "paste" right
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(11:40:14) mjl-: it didn't issue a tk "update" after adding the string to the text widget, so it didn't show up
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(12:23:45) eekee: where do you get wm/irc (& other interesting bits) from?
(12:25:10) mjl-: it's the tk frontend to ircfs, i wrote them both
(12:25:19) mjl-: they are here:  http://www.ueber.net/code/r/ircfs/
(12:25:44) mjl-: sorry
(12:25:46) mjl-: minus the trailing /
(12:25:50) mjl-: http://www.ueber.net/code/r/ircfs
(12:25:54) mjl-: that's the right url
(12:26:10) mjl-: if you click on "repository overview" in the upper left corner, you'll find some more software
(12:29:15) eekee: ah cheers!
(12:32:39) mjl-: np, have fun :)
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(13:59:03) eekee: is there a hget or wget analog?
(14:00:06) mjl-: there is webgrab
(14:00:26) mjl-: that can also get urls inside the downlodaed html
(14:00:43) mjl-: i wrote a hget, it's in some hg package on my site.  i think "http"
(14:00:47) eekee: ah neat
(14:01:11) mjl-: but i ported that just a few weeks ago, from an older hget based on another http lib (which did some things more complete but less nice)
(14:01:23) eekee: ahh
(14:21:17) eekee: um, lots of "don't know how to make..."
(14:21:32) eekee: (in ircfs-65)
(14:21:37) mjl-: hmm, ok
(14:21:44) mjl-: did you put a mkconfig in ircfs/?
(14:21:45) eekee: oh I prolly need to mk install as root, don't I
(14:21:49) eekee: yes
(14:22:11) mjl-: yeah, you need "mk install" first
(14:22:15) mjl-: otherwise irc.m can't found
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(14:37:55) eekee: what's the shell called?
(14:38:46) eekee: (executable name)
(14:41:05) mjl-: for ircfs?  there is ircfs and wm/irc.  the README has an example
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(14:47:31) eekee: oh no the inferno shell. maybe I should rewrite my inferno start script so I don't need it lol
(14:48:03) mjl-: oh, the shell is just /dis/sh.dis, no?
(14:48:20) mjl-: emu -c0 /dis/sh.dis -c 'ndb/cs; ...' etc. is what i usually do
(14:48:28) eekee: sh, thanks
(14:48:32) mjl-: if you start wm/wm, you can put init commands in lib/wmsetup
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(14:51:18) eekee: I usually want to start wm/wm but sometimes need to run it without X. I just figured out how
(15:01:03) mjl-: cool
(15:01:08) mjl-: anyway, off to the train ~~
(15:01:17) eekee: k have fun
(15:23:29) eekee: ogh
(15:25:10) eekee: no builde
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(01:34:57) powerman-asdf: Just noticed all sources use tabs for indentation. Can anybody point me to style guide (or any other doc) which recommend this (with reasoning)? I know, it should sounds very silly, but I was unable to find it myself. :(
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(03:07:30) uriel_: I doubt there is a style guide for inferno, this are things 'everybody knows'
(03:07:42) uriel_: but there is one for plan9, and I think charles linked to it for gsoc projects
(03:08:12) uriel_: powerman-asdf: http://code.google.com/p/inferno-os/wiki/Project_Suggestions
(03:08:24) uriel_: http://swtch.com/~rsc/worknotes/
(03:08:39) uriel_: but note that that is for C
(03:09:21) uriel_: the tabs vx. spaces thing is mostly a non-issue because well, all plan9 text editors use 'real' tabs
(03:19:50) powerman-asdf: uriel_: I've checked these style guides before asking here - no one of them say anything on topic
(03:22:37) powerman-asdf: about non-issue... I don't say it's issue. I just have (false?) feeling all world agreed to use spaces for indentation just to have same look in any text editors and don't bother about $tabspace anymore.
(03:24:54) uriel_: i just mean, well, as usual plan9 people can be rather 'narrowminded'
(03:25:34) uriel_: (really, in this case who can blame them, the whole tabs vs. spaces is a rather pointless argument, the key is consistency, and plan9 and inferno use tabs everywhere)
(03:26:55) powerman-asdf: so... the reasoning to use tabs now is consistency, and reasoning to use tab at beginning was lost in outer space. :)
(03:27:33) uriel_: powerman-asdf: unix used tabs too
(03:27:53) uriel_: the spaces thing is a rather new 'inovation' in the programming world
(03:28:30) powerman-asdf: it probably just a result of "evolution". too much braindamaged software, including text editors
(03:28:56) powerman-asdf: http://www.jwz.org/doc/tabs-vs-spaces.html
(03:31:46) uriel_: yea, I read that at some point...
(03:32:14) uriel_: I personally use four spaces for lunix code, because of the total lack of tab's meaning in lunix world
(03:32:27) uriel_: but then, the rules isalways: look at the surounding code, and use the same
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(03:44:39) uriel_: hey maht
(03:46:36) powerman-asdf: I'm here not to fight against these rules. I just love to know (and consider, to be honest) reasoning for everything. And I usually spend my time making this information available for others. The 'everybody knows' way is good only if you never need fresh blood.
(03:49:09) uriel_: i was just trying to explain why it is likely not documented
(03:49:27) powerman-asdf: yeah, thanks, I appreciate this
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(09:46:46) mjl-: http://code.google.com/p/inferno-os/source/detail?r=328#
(09:46:56) mjl-: still something happening on the inferno auth front
(09:48:54) uriel: yes, and the inferno-spki tree has seen quite a few commits
(09:49:10) uriel: hey, it only took over a year after the end of gsoc for the code to start getting somewhere..
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(21:59:55) powerman: I think about packaging inferno for Linux...
(22:00:26) powerman: If it will be installed system-wide, say in /usr/inferno - how it's better to give users access to it?
(22:01:00) powerman: They will be able to start emu, but they will not have neither home dir not access right to create it in /usr/inferno/usr/.
(22:01:35) powerman: I think about sort of automatic creation in /lib/sh/profile
(22:02:37) mjl-: powerman-asdf: how about making /usr from the inferno install a symlink to /home?  (or whatever holds the homedirs)
(22:02:38) powerman: maybe mounting their ~/inferno dir, something like '#U*/home/'`{cat /dev/user}'/inferno'
(22:02:56) mjl-: to linux' /home that is, so in the linux file system
(22:03:25) powerman: hmm. interesting. inferno doesn't have symlinks, is it will handle /usr symlink gracefully?
(22:03:44) mjl-: it will "hide" the fact that it is a symlink
(22:04:00) mjl-: and just handles it as if the file is the file being pointed to
(22:04:13) mjl-: i think
(22:04:19) mjl-: i think i've used this scheme
(22:04:51) powerman: yeah, I like it. will try it, thanks
(22:05:13) mjl-: hope it works.  have fun!
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(05:02:38) powerman: some time ago in mail list one recommend me to add this to /lib/sh/profile:
(05:02:40) powerman: cd
(05:02:42) powerman: {run profile}
(05:02:52) powerman: that time I was happy to copy&paste this
(05:03:07) powerman: now I wonder why there braces around run?
(05:03:24) powerman: it looks like they doesn't have any effect...
(05:04:38) powerman: any subtle thing here? limiting variable scope?
(05:07:52) uriel: no idea, I'm no sh(1) expert
(05:08:00) uriel: but I think it might run it in a sub-shell
(05:11:19) powerman: no way
(05:11:29) uriel: ok, nevermind me  then :)
(05:11:37) uriel: where did you read the cd {run profile} thing?
(05:12:36) powerman: good ques... 1 sec
(05:12:47) powerman: check original context is good idea always :)
(05:13:22) uriel: yup :)
(05:21:53) powerman: ok, I give up
(05:22:40) powerman: this piece of code was added to my files by aliens :)
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(06:46:19) powerman: listen without -t option try to protect /mnt/keys
(06:46:50) powerman: good idea. only questionable thing, why it doing this in _my_ namespace
(06:47:02) powerman: why not detach first?
(06:47:49) powerman: with current behaviour, when I run first svc/auth and next svc/rstyx I got broken auth because listen in svc/rstyx killed my /mnt/keys
(06:53:39) powerman: {load std; pctl forkns; svc/rstyx}& does the trick, of course. but imho it should be in listen.b.
(07:08:24) uriel: powerman-asdf: submit a patch ;)
(07:08:48) powerman: will do
(07:09:21) powerman: just wonder if there any reasons for such behaviour
(07:14:52) powerman: uriel: hmm. I think I realized why it work that way. at least partially
(07:15:24) powerman: auth itself also use lister (though listen -t)
(07:15:43) powerman: and it should see any changes in /mnt/keys - for example adding new users
(07:15:51) powerman: so it shouldn't fork namespace
(07:21:08) powerman: so... it probably not an issue how to force svc/rstyx to not touch my /mnt/keys, but how to isolate svc/rstyx in safe environment instead
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(01:37:57) uriel: npe: are you really that naive?
(01:38:08) uriel: or you are just going along with the joke?
(01:38:31) npe: uriel: the sword of time will pierce our skin
(01:38:38) npe: it doesn't hurt when it begins
(01:38:45) npe: but as it works its way on in...
(02:04:46) uriel: yawn
(02:05:16) uriel: anyway, does somebody understand charle's last commenta bout stack size being related to the inferno build failing on windows?
(02:05:28) uriel: it made no sense whatsoever to me, but then I have no clue what the hell he is talking about
(02:06:06) uriel: or maybe asking for a build system that works is too much...
(02:38:34) npe: uriel: use the source luke: http://inferno-olpc.googlecode.com/svn-history/r4/trunk/appl/lib/ida/idatab.b
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(02:52:15) uriel: npe: that doesn't explain *anything*
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(09:02:23) powerman: as far as I've checked after build, the idatab.dis was built. I also doesn't understood comment about stack size, but if .dis was built then everything probably ok..?
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(11:58:45) mjl-: about the idatab.dis
(11:58:58) mjl-: it has some constructs that cause the limbo compiler to build up a huge stack
(11:59:17) mjl-: so, on openbsd i needed to allow processes to have >= 4mb of stack (i think)
(11:59:30) mjl-: if windows allows only 200kb, that surely isn't enough
(12:00:03) mjl-: i saw some commits ~10 hours ago?  about idatab.dis and the mkfile
(12:08:44) powerman: right now I'm building for MacOSX 10.4 Tiger
(12:09:03) powerman: got this issue http://code.google.com/p/inferno-os/issues/detail?id=24
(12:09:16) powerman: probably
(12:09:24) powerman: libkeyring.a no such file or dir
(12:16:40) powerman: no. it doesn't looks like issue 24
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(14:12:21) powerman: solved. details here: http://code.google.com/p/inferno-os/issues/detail?id=125
(14:30:12) mjl-: good job powerman!
(14:46:46) gualteri: powerman, have you investigated why the lib%.a:V rule in emu/port/portmkfile to build libkeyring.a, doesn't trigger in first place?
(14:49:13) powerman: no
(14:49:37) powerman: I've no idea how to do this - no exp with neither mkfile nor Makefile
(14:50:12) powerman: gualteri: but if you've ideas, I can try them
(14:54:55) gualteri: powerman, what i usually do is start putting echo $vars in the rules that should trigger and don't. to attempt to understand what's wrong
(15:08:49) powerman: gualteri: echo there already exists
(15:09:12) powerman: that doesn't helps because it won't called
(15:10:36) powerman: the question is, in which directory (except root) I can run mk and it should build libkeyring?
(15:11:02) powerman: I mean, which exactly mkfile contain (or should contain) rules to build it?
(15:13:12) powerman: usually make build files in same directory. all of them - source files, Makefile and built binaries are in same directory, which make debugging ease
(15:14:42) powerman: but with there mkfile the .a files built into MacOSX/386/lib/, the mkfile is in port/emu/ and library which fail to build in libkeyring/
(15:14:50) powerman: I've no idea how to debug this.
(15:15:58) powerman: learning mk and investigating all mkfile in project is a little overkill for me right now
(15:21:55) gualteri: i can't reproduce the conditions under MacOSX, but i know the proper behaviour is:
(15:22:04) gualteri: cd emu/Linux
(15:22:11) gualteri: i mk /usr/inferno/Linux/386/lib/libkeyring.a
(15:22:18) gualteri: (cd /usr/inferno/libkeyring ; mk SHELLTYPE=sh SYSTARG=Linux OBJTYPE=386 install)
(15:22:21) gualteri: ar ruvs /usr/inferno/Linux/386/lib/libkeyring.a dsaalg.o egalg.o rsaalg.o
(15:23:13) gualteri: the last two commands show how the terminal output where: libkeyring.a is checked and built
(15:23:24) gualteri: s/how //
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(16:03:21) powerman: hmm
(16:03:34) powerman: I've just tried it. It works as expected.
(16:03:41) powerman: libkeyring.a was built
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(16:04:10) powerman: so probably issue in some else place, before this one
(16:05:59) powerman: uriel: this may be one more Russian doc in your collection: http://habrahabr.ru/blogs/os_inferno/42998/
(16:07:15) powerman: I've written article about installing Inferno from svn in Hardened Gentoo Linux, Ubuntu 8.04 Linux, Windows XP SP2 and Mac OS X 10.4.8 Tiger (hackintosh in VMware).
(16:08:05) powerman: Installation plus initial configuration, with explanation of some details of Inferno auth system.
(16:08:21) powerman: Something like install.pdf. :)
(16:15:15) uriel: powerman-asdf: cool! 
(16:15:31) uriel: powerman-asdf: what do you use to format that stuff? RsT?
(16:16:31) powerman: html
(16:16:40) powerman: not because I want it this way
(16:17:00) powerman: that website require html formatting (not all tags allowed, of course)
(16:17:01) uriel: powerman-asdf: I promise I will setup a wiki for you before the end of the weekend
(16:17:27) uriel: things have been a bit crazy over here, so I really haven't been able to get around to it..
(16:17:37) uriel: (the code still needs a bit more work)
(16:18:18) powerman: ok :)
(16:19:04) powerman: it may have sense to translate my article in English, but I have no power to do this, at least right now
(16:19:49) powerman: I've spend about 2 days for this, and a little tired of it. Maybe somebody else will translate it while I will have fun using Inferno. :)
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