Conversation with #inferno at Fri Oct 24 19:14:25 2008 on powerman-asdf@irc.freenode.net (irc)
(19:14:25) #inferno: The topic for #inferno is: Inferno and Limbo | Website: http://www.vitanuova.com/inferno/index.html | Documentation: http://www.vitanuova.com/inferno/docs.html | Wiki: http://canto.hopto.org/wiki/1/index.html | Tutorial: http://www.resc.rdg.ac.uk/twiki/bin/view/Resc/InfernoTutorial | Mailing list archives: http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.os.inferno.general
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(22:12:28) mjl-: ah, some more commits on inferno-os
(22:12:39) mjl-: powerman-asdf: docs mention mac os x now too
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(00:50:39) powerman: I wonder is .ps files edited manually or there some special software exists?
(00:51:27) powerman: It looks like Charles edit them manually.
(00:53:37) powerman: As for me it looks like masohism - why not use much ease to read/update wiki-like markup and then generate man pages and ps/pdf documents using tools like asciidoc?
(00:54:45) powerman: At least using simpler markup make it much ease to read diffs.
(00:54:51) powerman: For me. :)
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(01:05:21) eekee: powerman-asdf: latex? texinfo? I think even troff has ps output
(01:07:50) powerman: eekee: you mean real documentation files are in some other format and svn has only man/ps/pdf which is result of conversion from that format?
(01:08:19) powerman: eekee: if original format more readable in plain text (diff) format, why not include it too...
(01:10:09) olegfink: powerman-asdf: most plan9/inferno papers are typeset in troff I believe
(01:11:05) powerman: I never work with *tex* and *roff before (except using tools for converting). Each time I look at them they look too complicated. Probably for writing books with complex math they are the best, but for man pages I prefer something much simpler.
(01:11:06) eekee: diffs to a ps/pdf do seem strange, but ps at least is actually plain ascii
(01:12:08) powerman: Like Perl's POD or AsciiDoc.
(01:12:14) eekee: *roff for man pages dorsn't strike me as complex, although I've forgotten a lot
(01:14:29) olegfink: the only bad thing about troff is that it defines physical markup, which isn't fashionable nowadays
(01:15:11) eekee: heh, physical makes more sense to me
(01:23:39) eekee: oh I was reading someone saying they prefered latex to troff for really complex docs. Their issue with troff was it's using whitespace to delimit commands, or something
(01:29:45) uriel: all plan9 papers are (or should be) in troff
(01:29:50) uriel: same with inferno papers
(01:30:07) uriel: .ps files are certainly not edited manually
(01:30:50) uriel: and btw, troff is actually quite simple, I have used from writting papers to making presentation slides
(01:31:52) powerman: I can't imagine any reason to use physical markup for doc. If all headers, links, and in several ways differently marked things (some words, commands, file path, etc.) and some blocks like sidenotes/warnings/etc. are differ in *any* way in output format - it's more than enough. Let people read it with any physical markup they like.
(01:32:29) powerman: uriel: what you think, is it have sense to ask Charles to add troff files into svn?
(01:32:51) powerman: i.e. is it make diffs more readable than now with .ps? :)
(01:37:59) olegfink: uriel: by the way, do you think that having a plan9 server doing more or less what bell labs external servers (web+sources) do but more reliable makes sense?
(01:38:46) gualteri: powerman, troff sources are already in svn, see the .ms files in doc/
(01:38:52) olegfink: powerman-asdf: mans come from the days they were usually typeset, so physical markup makes more sense. otherwise they were displayed on text terminals which are quite ignorant to any formatting whatsoever
(01:40:50) powerman: ohh, sorry everybody, there was a typo in original questions: I speak about .ms files, not .ps.
(01:41:51) powerman: Everything else applies. They are not as simple and ease to read in diff as wiki-like markup.
(01:42:05) uriel: 00:31 < powerman-asdf> uriel: what you think, is it have sense to ask Charles to add troff files into svn?
(01:42:13) uriel: powerman-asdf: troff files are in svn AFAIK
(01:42:34) powerman: yeah, I already realized this, thanks to gualteri
(01:42:43) uriel: olegfink: I don't understand what you mean by 'makes sense'
(01:43:23) uriel: powerman-asdf: papers are not wiki pages
(01:43:32) uriel: papers are papers
(01:43:42) uriel: if you want wiki pages, then use a wiki
(01:44:04) uriel: for fucks sake, charles can't even be bothered to provide even remotely sane html versions of the papers!
(01:44:26) uriel: (part of the reason doc.cat-v.org/inferno exists at all, the docs section of the vn site is a really sad, sad, joke)
(01:44:32) olegfink: uriel: I just figured out I have a possibility to host a server or two at my uni's network.
(01:44:47) uriel: olegfink: i still don't understand your question
(01:45:13) powerman: uriel: documentation for software isn't printed papers nowadays. but it's sometimes a wiki. :)
(01:45:18) uriel: (and yea, I'm deliveratedly being an obtuse asshole)
(01:45:48) uriel: powerman-asdf: tell that to charles, as I said, some of the papers are not available even in html (and some I think not in .pdf either)
(01:46:30) uriel: that that is out of not giving a fuck, because it is quite easy to generate html from troff with the same htmlroff that plan9 uses
(01:47:08) powerman: I don't think availability in html/pdf is a question. If we have .ms we can generate and publish them without bothering Charles. The question is readability of diffs.
(01:47:23) uriel: and really, can you *stop* whining about inferno not being an even remotely sane open source project? it is not one, it will never be, and if you don't like whine to charles, not to us
(01:47:27) uriel: (or fork)
(01:47:34) uriel: (like the openmoko-girl seems to have decided to do)
(01:48:00) uriel: powerman-asdf: .ms is the original source, a diff of an .ms is the most readable form possible
(01:48:16) olegfink: as I have already said, I think she made the best choice
(01:48:19) uriel: if you don't like .ms, then you can go write your own documentation in docbok or whatever crap you like
(01:48:45) uriel: she made what choice? isn't like she seems much more communicative and open than charles
(01:49:16) uriel: was trying to keep track of what the fuck she was changing, and I gave up, she seemed to have changed every single file in the tree, and all commits mesages consisted of the word 'minor'
(01:49:21) uriel: (or somesuch)
(01:49:36) uriel: I guess she is picking up charles style of not providing commit messages quite fast
(01:49:41) olegfink: uriel: my question may be possibly read as 'if there is some demand in taking the plan9 off bell labs'
(01:49:45) uriel: (but then, at least charles sort of keeps a CHANGELOG file...)
(01:50:08) olegfink: she made a choice that she has to fork inferno for her needs
(01:50:28) uriel: olegfink: demand by who? and demand of who? try to explain to geoff that the job their are doing at maintaining the p9 site is apalling, what the fuck do you ask me?
(01:50:28) olegfink: see, open source is just a form of business.
(01:50:49) uriel: give me a break, nobody is making money, other than coraid anyway
(01:51:06) olegfink: that's why we don't speak open source, right?
(01:51:18) olegfink: inferno has the source, it isn't open source
(01:51:38) uriel: we don't 'speak open source' because the people that created plan9 and inferno *hate* open source software, for good reasons
(01:51:57) uriel: (I guess an analogy could be made here with djb that might help powerman-asdf understand)
(01:52:12) uriel: olegfink: the source is open source, the project is not
(01:52:25) olegfink: yes.
(01:52:38) uriel: yes what?
(01:52:47) olegfink: it's just a different model, and nowadays people tend to think FOSS is the only one possible
(01:53:03) olegfink: yes to the project not being a FOSS type.
(01:55:16) olegfink: demanding open source features from plan9/inferno makes as much sense as asking microsoft for the source code of windows just because 'everything is open source now'
(01:55:35) uriel: actually, I wonder if it is any model at all
(01:55:48) uriel: other than 'we don't give a fuck about what the rest of the world does or thinks'
(01:56:07) powerman: I'm totally lost. :) How the hell question about diff's readability turned out to F/OSS?
(01:56:47) powerman: Or using simple markup for docs is something harmful and used only by brandamaged GNU people?
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(02:02:30) olegfink: that doesn't solve anything, but it might serve as an experiment to answer my initial question
(02:04:37) powerman: As for djb, he tried to protect his software from changes by other people. And that's for good, because small amount of people able to understand why not to add more features, and only few of them able to write code with same quality as djb. Also djb dislike man format and keep all docs only in html in his site (I failed to find info about this right now - but fact is, man pages for djb software distributed in separate packages by other people).
(02:05:53) powerman: So... I don't really understand what you are speaking about. :)
(02:12:57) uriel: olegfink: I have been thinking about something like PlanA for years
(02:13:52) olegfink: so you hit some serious trouble not letting you implement that?
(02:14:07) uriel: (it might seem strange, but werc is in a way a step towards that goal, I wanted to have some decent infrastructure to manage the project first)
(02:14:28) uriel: I hit some serious trouble with all kinds of things, mostly with my brain
(02:19:25) olegfink: well, I think releasing something of the sort will show if there is any interest in plan9 deviations
(02:25:12) uriel: if it is going to be done, it has to be done right
(02:25:24) uriel: and in a way people interested can easily get involved
(02:25:41) uriel: also, it would be rather hypocritical to be critical of the people 'in charge', and then do a half assed job
(02:25:54) uriel: (after all, part of the whole point, is to show by example)
(02:28:46) olegfink: true, so you suggest developing the complete infrastructure first?
(02:29:18) olegfink: I think it's near to impossible, it's much easier to add features when they're actually needed
(02:33:10) uriel: olegfink: well, I needed werc for other purposes anyway
(02:33:34) uriel: so I'm building the infrastructure that I need for other projects
(02:33:46) uriel: and then I will see if that is enough or what more is needed and so on
(02:34:12) uriel: btw, if you have a spare server, feel free to try to setup werc on plan9 or something, that might be a fuck exercise
(02:34:20) uriel: now I need some sleep
(02:35:06) olegfink: haven't gabi done it?
(02:45:36) gualteri: olegfink, afaik he's currently using arisawa's rit: http://plan9.aichi-u.ac.jp/rit/rit-1.4.html
(02:46:28) gualteri: or at least that's what hget -h http://sirviente.9grid.es | grep '#!/bin/rit' suggests
(02:58:31) uriel: rit is rather... well, I just don't like it much
(02:58:45) uriel: kris's template.awk seems about as powerful, and much, much simpler
(02:58:50) uriel: (maybe even more powerful)
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(07:08:53) powerman: I'm trying to find out what exactly happens while booting emu.
(07:09:07) powerman: Before starting emuinit.dis it bind a lot of things.
(07:09:29) powerman: And I unable to find what these binds supposed to do in docs.
(07:09:32) powerman: For ex.:
(07:10:04) powerman: there a lot of bind /dir /dir - possibility to do this mentioned in docs, but effect and reasons to do this doesn't
(07:10:18) powerman: even more funny:
(07:10:18) powerman: bind /net.alt /net.alt
(07:10:18) powerman: bind -a /net.alt /net.alt
(07:10:27) powerman: what it expected to do?
(07:11:41) powerman: and there strange enough behaviour on unmounting and mounting again of /net.alt:
(07:11:41) powerman: ; ls -l /net.alt
(07:11:41) powerman: d-rwxr-xr-x U 3 inferno inferno 0 Oct 24 17:30 /net.alt/.svn
(07:11:41) powerman: ; unmount /net.alt
(07:11:41) powerman: ; ls -l /net.alt
(07:11:41) powerman: ; bind /net.alt /net.alt
(07:11:41) powerman: ; bind -a /net.alt /net.alt
(07:11:41) powerman: ; ls -l /net.alt
(07:11:41) powerman: ; 
(07:14:15) powerman: only idea I have right now is look at plan9 docs, maybe it works in same way and documented there... :(
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(09:16:35) powerman: sadly, but plan 9 manuals doesn't help too :(
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(11:49:40) mjl-: powerman-asdf: some mention of those binds are in 9fans
(11:49:47) mjl-: i know they have talked about it
(11:49:52) mjl-: no idea when though
(11:49:55) mjl-: & good morninG :
(11:49:57) mjl-: :)
(12:02:15) gualteri: good morning mjl-
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(12:33:53) powerman: I've already found an answer, thanks to olegfink
(12:34:31) powerman: these binds are done automatically by kernel when making usual directory a union directory
(12:35:20) powerman: except this effect they are noop
(12:36:44) powerman: now I experimenting with undoing all binds automatically done by emu when it boot :)
(12:36:58) powerman: wanna got clean rootfs and see at it
(12:37:36) powerman: the problem was, after unmount / I've no tools to ls it or bind / back
(12:37:54) powerman: I've worked around it by doing cp /dis/bind.dis /env/ :D
(12:38:05) powerman: cos /env/ is effectively just a tmpfs 
(12:38:39) powerman: executing 'environment variable' was cool :)
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(14:13:27) olegfink: powerman-asdf: you could use a custom tmpfs as well, see plan9's /rc/bin/fshalt
(14:14:33) powerman: #e is more funny. I never executed environment variable before ;-)
(14:15:02) eekee: :D
(14:15:26) olegfink: well, you risk having Mr. Kaspersky's word that inferno is insecure
(14:15:35) powerman: hehehehehe
(14:15:47) powerman: my bad :)
(14:17:05) olegfink: he's actually my hero, his speech about unix-like systems being insecure is almost as good as windows 1.0 tv ad by ballmer.
(14:18:06) ***eekee wants to know more about this Mr. Kaspersky, but has to go out ^^
(14:18:11) powerman: olegfink: he probably have no choice. it's impossible "to sell" and "to be honest" at once
(14:18:28) powerman: eekee: kaspersky is anti-virus
(14:18:46) eekee: uh k
(14:19:27) olegfink: more on topic, great work bringing Kuchar's translation back online. Were you able to contact him? He's done a lot of work, not only translating, he has written quite interesting articles on his own.
(14:20:45) powerman: olegfink: if you asking me - you asking wrong person. ask uriel_, he found these docs
(14:22:21) olegfink: ah, okay.
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(18:36:36) olegfink: powerman-asdf: I don't get your point about making X dependency optional
(18:37:24) olegfink: if you don't need X libs (i.e. when you build emu-g) just disable corresponding -Ls in emu/Linux/mkfile
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(00:55:43) powerman: olegfink: I don't think removing -Ls will fix this issue - it require .h files while compiling win-x11.c or something similar
(00:59:04) olegfink: are you aware of emu-g?
(00:59:17) olegfink: this config doesn't compile win-x11.c at all.
(00:59:23) powerman: no
(01:00:41) olegfink: http://inferno-os.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/emu/Linux/emu-g
(01:00:57) olegfink: it's a plan9 kernel-like config, set in CONF= in emu/Linux/mkfile
(01:01:39) olegfink: (in the same file there are SYSLIBS= you want to alter)
(01:02:46) powerman: yeah, I see, but it's hidden good enough: $ find -name '*-g'
(01:02:46) powerman: ./emu/MacOSX/mkfile-g
(01:02:46) powerman: ./emu/MacOSX/emu-g
(01:02:46) powerman: ./emu/Linux/emu-g
(01:02:46) powerman: with only note about them in ./emu/MacOSX/NOTE
(01:03:50) olegfink: by the way, in theory you can add a vars section to config (which is handled by emu/port/mkdevlist) and have SYSLIBS set to include X11 in emu and not to include it in emu-g
(01:04:28) olegfink: but for me it seems to add complexity without doing anything useful as you should change the mkfile anyway
(01:05:58) powerman: I think easier to build both emu and emu-g by default.
(01:06:01) olegfink: ah, it's implemented already
(01:06:04) olegfink: ^env
(01:06:11) olegfink: _why_?
(01:07:56) olegfink: nobody needs two
(01:08:22) powerman: because it always good idea to don't include features you don't really use
(01:08:32) powerman: emu-g is 2 times smaller
(01:08:40) powerman: run faster, I believe :D
(01:08:51) olegfink: sure, but it doesn't include X
(01:09:07) olegfink: see, you even have a _ready to use_ option not to use X!
(01:09:14) olegfink: just enable it and enjoy
(01:09:24) powerman: so what? you can run your services using emu-g and at same time run emu for development
(01:09:45) powerman: you anyway need several emu running, just because development emu is restarting often
(01:09:53) olegfink: you can compile as many emus as you need
(01:10:02) olegfink: cd emu/Linux; mk
(01:10:06) olegfink: mk install
(01:10:07) olegfink: mk clean
(01:10:12) olegfink: mk CONF=emu-g
(01:10:16) olegfink: mk install
(01:10:18) olegfink: that's it
(01:10:28) olegfink: now you have two emus
(01:10:33) olegfink: in Linux/386/bin
(01:11:43) powerman: yeah, I think this is enough
(01:12:21) olegfink: so no need to do anything else by default.
(01:16:09) powerman: mk CONF=emu-g doesn't work. will try mk CONF=emu-g install now...
(01:17:05) olegfink: then change CONF= in emu/Linux/mkfile
(01:19:59) powerman: no, I think mk CONF= works, but not without target like "install"
(01:20:44) olegfink: ah
(01:21:08) powerman: also I still have to edit SYSLIBS to build it on system without these libs. but it built, and works. thanks a lot!
(01:21:44) olegfink: I have a patch for this, but I suspect charles won't accept it and he'll be right
(01:21:58) ***powerman will update article on habr with this info
(01:23:47) powerman: no, I also don't think anything require patching here. it able to build both emu and emu-g on usual workstation using CONF=, and it require this small editing of SYSLIBS to build emu-g on server - that's not a real problem.
(01:26:09) uriel: powerman-asdf: have you seen this: http://code.google.com/p/inferno-bin/ ?
(01:26:10) olegfink: here's it: http://rafb.net/p/nKgdR189.html
(01:26:20) olegfink: it generally makes SYSLIBS part of config
(01:26:53) uriel: (and in particular: http://code.google.com/p/inferno-bin/wiki/Configurations )
(01:28:10) olegfink: uriel: opinion on the patch?
(01:28:17) olegfink: I can't say if it makes sense.
(01:28:36) olegfink: from some point of view, it makes things more logical, but adds more complexity
(01:31:37) powerman: uriel: no, I havn't seen it before, thanks
(01:32:20) powerman: but it still looks like ability to build emu-g isn't documented anywhere
(01:32:37) olegfink: I learned about it the hard way
(01:32:41) powerman: inferno-bin wiki mention it existence, but no more
(01:32:50) olegfink: that is, when I almost written it myself
(01:32:57) olegfink: *wrote
(01:33:16) powerman: olegfink: hope next generation of inferno users will learn in ease way - from habr :)
(01:33:53) powerman: actually I'm very happy with charles enthusiasm while updating documentation
(01:34:51) olegfink: while I agree that social network are a fine way of promotion, I think they're exceptionally bad as information resources.
(01:34:54) olegfink: *networks
(01:34:57) powerman: project with race condition bugs may survive and have heavy usage, but project without comprehensive and uptodate documentation - not. IMHO.
(01:36:07) powerman: olegfink: I'll mention you patch on http://rafb.net/p/nKgdR189.html in my comment to issue 126, ok?
(01:37:32) olegfink: if you want.
(01:37:40) olegfink: though I don't see an 'issue' here.
(01:40:58) powerman: right now I also don't see an 'issue' here, but I've already made a mistake and opened it yesterday, so now it's good enough place to discuss emu-g in general :)
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(02:06:46) powerman: olegfink: I don't think social networks are much worse than any other sources like forums or wikipedia.
(02:07:15) powerman: all information should be available in project docs
(02:07:25) powerman: but this isn't always the case
(02:07:34) powerman: so people go and look in other places
(02:08:23) powerman: social networks at least provide ability to discuss, fix incorrect of outdated information in articles, etc.
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(02:16:17) gualteri: olegfink, what's the reason for http://rafb.net/p/nKgdR189.html?
(02:16:56) gualteri: usually SYSLIBS is system dependant and goes to mkfiles/mkfile-$SYSHOST-$OBJTYPE
(02:17:36) gualteri: by putting it into CONF=emu you're adding system dependant info to the CONF which should be system independent
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(02:22:59) powerman: gualteri: it's now impossible to build emu-g on server which doesn't have libX11 and libXext installed (which are rarely installed on servers) without editing manually SYSLIBS in emu/Linux/mkfile
(02:23:17) powerman: not a big deal, but...
(02:27:06) gualteri: powerman, about docs concerning CONF using lookman conf, i reach a man page conf(10) which documents it
(02:29:12) olegfink: gualteri: for Linux, SYSLIBS are in emu/Linux/mkfile, so moving them to emu/Linux/* doesn't introduce any more dependency 
(02:31:33) gualteri: ack, i was expecting SYSLIBS to be in mkfiles/mkfile-$SYSHOST-$OBJTYPE but after looking i noticed that they where already in emu/Linux/mkfile
(02:32:01) olegfink: hmm, do you believe in precognitivity in programming?
(02:32:03) powerman: gualteri: CONF itself is documented, but feature to build emu-g itself not documented - but it should, and not in conf(10) but in install-related documentation
(02:32:52) olegfink: would you believe me if I say I have a function that given a number of choices chooses one such that the program doesn't fail after the choice? :-)
(02:35:26) olegfink: i.e. I have a list of small integers, say 2,3,4,5. I say I have a function that is able to choose a pair of them, so the next check (which tests that one is another in power of two) succeeds?
(02:35:59) powerman: olegfink: sounds like Munchausen: - And so what you have choose? - I choose to survive. :)
(02:36:34) olegfink: sort of.
(02:36:46) olegfink: but still, that's true
(02:37:20) olegfink: granted it is not possible to implement smoothly in all languages, but at least in functional ones it is more then possible
(02:37:55) olegfink: this function, called amb for 'ambient', is a true oracle: it chooses values having no information on their use.
(02:39:05) olegfink: http://rafb.net/p/Ll1CAN54.html
(02:39:12) olegfink: this prints "2 * 2 = 4"
(02:39:34) olegfink: and it's an order of mangitude better than street magic.
(02:40:26) olegfink: but that's off topic
(02:41:11) olegfink: gualteri: in fact, SYSLIBS make much sense in <os>/mkfile, as they are unlikely to be architecture-dependant
(02:42:35) gualteri: well, that depends on the care taken by the os designers to isolate arch-dependant bits
(02:44:25) gualteri: in any case i agree, moreover it's late and i need to rest :)
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(03:01:38) uriel: 00:27 < olegfink> uriel: opinion on the patch?
(03:01:43) uriel: olegfink: what patch?
(03:02:07) uriel: 00:31 < powerman-asdf> but it still looks like ability to build emu-g isn't documented anywhere
(03:02:16) uriel: just like >95% of inferno, what did you expect?
(03:02:46) uriel: what is habr btw?
(03:03:33) powerman: uriel: the question isn't what I "expect". we just working on improving docs
(03:03:44) powerman: habr is http://habrahabr.ru/
(03:04:41) powerman: and I think 95% is probably wrong number
(03:04:44) powerman: :)
(03:04:50) powerman: at least I hope so
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(03:22:54) olegfink: uriel: moving SYSLIBS to CONF
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(04:44:24) powerman: is it possible to compile emu with different default rootdir without editing ./emu/Nt/devfs.c?
(04:45:15) powerman: I'm trying to build standalone myprog.exe, which can be run without -r. param and without special env variables
(04:51:36) powerman: btw, it works :) my first .exe app after many many years
(04:57:10) uriel: powerman-asdf: awesome
(04:57:19) uriel: btw, you might want to check how acme-sac does it
(04:57:46) powerman: yeah, this makes sense...
(04:59:56) powerman: yep, he did the same thing
(04:59:57) powerman: http://code.google.com/p/acme-sac/source/browse/trunk/sys/emu/Nt/devfs.c
(05:00:02) powerman: char    rootdir[MAXROOT] = ".";
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(12:00:16) rog: is there any difference between 'forall a. (Typeable a) => a' and Dynamic?
(12:00:34) rog: oops, wrong channel!
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(02:05:07) uriel: npe: how much does it cost a DS in japan this days?
(02:14:16) npe: Don't know because I'm not in Japan, but around $180 I'd expect for the newest model. 
(02:22:35) uriel: npe: oh, where the hell are you?
(02:22:51) npe: Austin.
(02:25:26) uriel: if I see one more "Sent from my iPhone" email I swear I will punch somebody in the face
(02:25:54) uriel: how fucking obvnoxious can the bunch of Job's cock suckers get? 
(02:29:04) npe: lol... I have an iphone too. 
(02:29:12) npe: just too lazy to send mails with ti. 
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(03:01:28) uriel: npe: you aren't going back to .jp then?
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(03:17:37) uriel: powerman-asdf: really wonderful job with that list of broken references!
(03:17:44) uriel: powerman-asdf: thanks!
(03:18:03) npe: uriel: I am, but in Feb. 
(03:19:17) uriel: npe: wont you know how the hell one can find timetables for trains in greece?
(03:19:30) npe: I looked it up before. 
(03:19:36) npe: You want it?
(03:19:58) uriel: (or busses, or whatever, I'm arriving on thursday at 23:00 to athens, and I'm on my way to jumping off the plane rather than dealing with the last few hundred km of the trip)
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(03:24:39) npe: http://www.cost-gemini.eu/Greececon/Travel%20VOLOS.pdf
(03:25:03) npe: 23:00 sounds kind of late. 
(03:25:23) npe: iwp9 will have started by then won't it? 
(03:28:10) uriel: no fucking shit
(03:28:18) uriel: can you find me another plane ticket now? thanks you
(03:28:52) uriel: er, wait, I meant wednesday
(03:29:05) npe: uriel: lol... dumbass. 
(03:29:08) uriel: anyway, for all practical purposes iwp9 will have started already
(03:29:42) uriel: seems I'm going to have to take a fucking taxi from the airport to the train station *sigh*
(03:29:50) uriel: this is going to suck big time
(03:30:22) npe: you'll be cutting it close. 
(03:31:07) uriel: I'm not sure I can make it even if I take a taxi, bleh
(03:31:32) uriel: and if I miss that train, seems that I'm stuck until the morning in anthens, joy
(03:32:38) uriel: anyone knows if one can buy train tickets in the train?
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(05:57:38) powerman: uriel: I'm not sure it was a good idea to include them all in a single issue. Looks like Charles with ease handle small fixes but larger one usually delayed. This is quite understandable from psychological view, but still...
(05:58:43) powerman: But I decide broken links are even less important issue than typos and incorrect docs, so it they will not be fixed it's ok.
(06:00:27) powerman: s/so it they/so if they/
(06:13:28) uriel: I find broken links a big pain in the ass when browsing around documentation
(06:13:45) uriel: I waste 90% of the time trying to find the doc that the current doc is talking about, and so on
(06:14:01) uriel: and those fixes are trivial, I doubt it should take him more than 15 to fix them all
(06:34:31) powerman: will see
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(21:18:27) vasily_pupkin: hi
(21:18:34) vasily_pupkin: anybody use inferno on linux?
(21:21:48) uriel: some times...
(21:24:27) vasily_pupkin: i have strange problem
(21:24:41) vasily_pupkin: emu hangs up on start
(21:25:07) uriel: what version?
(21:25:08) vasily_pupkin: i look to process table. emu threads are marked as paused 
(21:25:24) vasily_pupkin: i can send continue signal, and thread wake up 
(21:25:35) vasily_pupkin: svn and stable from vita-nuova
(21:26:10) uriel: and it hangs right after calling emu?
(21:26:15) vasily_pupkin: yes
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(21:52:24) powerman: vasily_pupkin: which one linux distribution?
(21:53:15) powerman: if it's new ubuntu beta, then it may be related to this issue: http://code.google.com/p/inferno-os/issues/detail?id=121
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(21:56:46) vasily_pupkin: powerman-asdf: Gentoo 
(21:57:22) uriel: might have something to do with newer kernels/libc/X?
(21:58:04) powerman: I use it on Gentoo. Never experienced any issues. Any special things about your Gentoo we should know? Unusual kernel? uClibc?
(21:59:22) vasily_pupkin: hm
(21:59:35) vasily_pupkin: 2.6.27/glibc 2.8
(21:59:45) vasily_pupkin: paravirtualization is off, no xen
(22:00:50) vasily_pupkin: nothing unusual 
(22:01:16) vasily_pupkin: BRK and VDSO in compatible state
(22:01:53) vasily_pupkin: avatar@AliSo ~ % cat /proc/sys/vm/vdso_enabled 
(22:01:53) vasily_pupkin: 2
(22:01:53) vasily_pupkin:  
(22:03:56) powerman: I'm on 2.6.25 because of hardened kernel. glibc-2.6.1. cat /proc/sys/vm/vdso_enabled give 1 instead of yours 2, but I'm too sleepy now and don't remember exactly what it is
(22:04:11) vasily_pupkin: 1 - VDSO enabled
(22:05:27) powerman: I think Ubuntu 8.10 (mentioned in issue above) may use same newer kernel/glibc, so it may be related.
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(22:07:49) powerman: I feel I read something about this behaviour (process become paused after start), unrelated to Inferno. But don't remember exactly. Is there something unusual in logs? dmesg?
(22:08:05) powerman: If kernel pauses process, it may explain reason...
(22:08:08) vasily_pupkin: No. Clear everywhere
(22:08:40) powerman: you can try to increase kernel loglevel
(22:09:05) vasily_pupkin: in dmesg clear :]
(22:09:15) powerman: this can be done with SysRq, and probably with writing to /proc/something
(22:09:47) uriel: vasily_pupkin: best bet would be to try an older kernel, 
(22:09:56) uriel: (a bit more trouble would be to try an older glibc)
(22:10:05) powerman: also it may have sense to try starting emu under strace
(22:10:13) uriel: powerman-asdf: good idea
(22:10:19) vasily_pupkin: strace not working
(22:10:27) vasily_pupkin: detached and nothing happens
(22:10:33) powerman: strace -ff ?
(22:10:40) olegfink: -fF
(22:10:53) vasily_pupkin: seems like emu not hanged, but child dis processes sigstoped 
(22:11:26) vasily_pupkin: Ha!
(22:11:35) vasily_pupkin: -fF: all works :]
(22:11:42) powerman: olegfink: -F This  option  is  now  obsolete  and it has the same functionality as -f. (from man)
(22:12:16) vasily_pupkin: Strange..
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(22:12:40) olegfink: powerman-asdf: I feel like an oldie.
(22:12:54) vasily_pupkin: with child trace all work 
(22:13:07) olegfink: btw, sorry about your translation question, my brain is completely off and neither do I understand that Rails pun
(22:13:16) powerman: hehe. in theory strace shouldn't have any side effects :)
(22:13:26) vasily_pupkin: hm
(22:13:30) vasily_pupkin: strace uses int3 ?
(22:13:43) powerman: strace use ptrace, I think
(22:13:47) olegfink: eric said with strace he was able to start sh, but everything else still failed
(22:14:06) powerman: eric used gdb, it's slightly different from strace
(22:14:36) vasily_pupkin: gdb by default uses hardware breaks as i remeber
(22:17:22) olegfink: err, right
(22:19:24) vasily_pupkin: In thread on googlecode with issue 121 first answers :]
(22:21:48) powerman: hope it will be resolved soon :)
(22:27:12) powerman: this may be related too http://kerneltrap.org/mailarchive/linux-kernel/2008/8/7/2856014
(22:28:01) powerman: vasily_pupkin: try previous kernel. it's much ease than glibc disgrade :)
(22:28:13) vasily_pupkin: eh..
(22:28:25) vasily_pupkin: Better I install inferno on plan9 terminal :]
(22:28:37) powerman: you can do both :)
(22:28:50) vasily_pupkin: Till now i had both :)
(22:29:01) vasily_pupkin: don't want to downgrade ^_^
(22:31:11) powerman: that's one more thing why I love hardened. while Gentoo x86 much more stable than ~x86, the hardened x86 is even more stable than usual x86. gcc is still 3.4.6 here :)
(22:31:27) vasily_pupkin: (%
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(20:26:10) soul9: what would one use to truncate lines to a specific length?
(20:26:21) soul9: doesn't matter wether the rest of the line survives or not, really
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(21:19:10) ooooo: soul9: awk
(22:17:22) soul9: oh
(22:17:23) soul9: thx
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