Conversation with #inferno at Tue Nov 18 19:04:20 2008 on powerman-asdf@irc.freenode.net (irc)
(19:04:20) #inferno: The topic for #inferno is: Inferno and Limbo | Website: http://www.vitanuova.com/inferno/index.html | Documentation: http://www.vitanuova.com/inferno/docs.html | Wiki: http://canto.hopto.org/wiki/1/index.html | Tutorial: http://www.resc.rdg.ac.uk/twiki/bin/view/Resc/InfernoTutorial | Mailing list archives: http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.os.inferno.general
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(20:45:15) mennis: I am trying to get a limbo file I have written to compile and get included in my root file system.  
(20:45:15) mennis: I have written a mkfile and placed it in appl/ops along with the associated .b file.
(20:45:16) mennis: http://dpaste.com/91803/
(20:45:16) mennis: and modified the mkfile in appl/:
(20:45:16) mennis: http://dpaste.com/91805/
(20:45:16) mennis: added the dis to my kernel recipe:
(20:45:18) mennis: http://dpaste.com/91804/
(20:45:20) mennis: when I attept to compile though I get:
(20:45:22) mennis: mk: don't know how to make '/usr/inferno/dis/ops/hellonet.dis' in directory /usr/inferno/os/pc
(20:45:24) mennis: What am I missing?
(20:49:51) mjl-: mennis: the file /usr/inferno/dis/ops/hellonet.dis exists?
(20:50:10) mennis: yes.
(20:50:14) mennis: I think so.
(20:50:40) mennis: yes. /usr/inferno/appl/ops/hellonet.b 
(20:50:45) mennis: does
(20:50:54) mennis: as well
(20:50:55) mjl-: ok, but the .b doesn't matter
(20:50:58) mjl-: the .dis has to exist
(20:51:31) mennis: ok both do 
(20:52:15) mennis: klunk;  lc
(20:52:15) mennis: hellonet.b  hellonet.dis hellonet.sbl mkfile
(20:52:15) mennis: klunk; 
(20:52:26) mennis: ugh. tabs.
(20:52:36) mjl-: uhh
(20:52:41) mjl-: that's in appl/ops?
(20:52:48) mjl-: or is the .b in /dis/ops too?
(20:53:21) mennis: ooooh.
(20:53:25) mennis: hmm
(20:53:27) mjl-: a "ls -l /usr/inferno/dis/ops/hellonet.dis" should list the .dis file
(20:53:43) mjl-: when building the kernel, no attempt is made to compile limbo source code & install the resulting .dis files
(20:55:05) mennis: Great moving it  fixed it.
(20:56:03) mennis: SO what am I doing wrong that the mkfile doesn't move it in when I run mk all fromw /usr/inferno
(20:56:30) mjl-: you need to run mk install
(20:56:33) mjl-: or mk installall
(20:56:34) mjl-: or something
(20:56:41) mjl-: mk all just compile the code
(20:56:58) mjl-: but leaves the .dis files next to the .b files.  only "install" copies them to /dis
(20:57:05) mjl-: make that "mk install"
(21:01:55) mennis: Ok, awesome.  I understand now, thanks.
(21:04:30) mjl-: mennis: do you know if the hlt thing has been committed to the inferno-os svn repo?
(21:05:11) mennis: oh I think so.  My laptop stoped overheating.
(21:05:31) mjl-: cool :)
(21:05:40) mjl-: you are running inferno native on your laptop? :)
(21:05:49) mjl-: or is that the hypervisor machine?
(21:08:17) mennis: I am using vmware fusion on a MBP.
(21:09:04) mennis: I also have a small number of tyan and supermicro based servers to test with when I am in the office.
(21:09:45) mennis: hmm it appears the idels stuff is still missing.
(21:09:58) soul9: hi, mjl-
(21:10:03) mjl-: hmm, what is a mbp?
(21:10:04) mjl-: yo soul9
(21:10:16) mjl-: google can't find it for me :)
(21:10:19) mennis: MacBook Pro.  (gaps!) :)
(21:10:25) mjl-: ah :)
(21:11:25) mjl-: mennis: so, you have a job doing something with inferno?
(21:11:37) mjl-: always good to hear about, if it's the case :)
(21:12:01) mennis: I have a job where they tolerate me learning about it. It's not a product yet.
(21:12:39) mennis: I am not sure I will be the one who does it when it becomes one but it is planned.
(21:13:47) mennis: I wrote most of our manufacturing stuff in linux/python and I'd like to move it to inferno/limbo so that it matches the plan9 culture of the shop.
(21:14:07) soul9: just as a note on ircfs (i'm bummed i don't know enough limbo to just supply a patch): ircfs doesn't limit the line length, so it can send lines that get the client borked from the server
(21:14:21) soul9: and there is no copy from the input line
(21:14:32) soul9: otherwise thank you for the awesome app!
(21:15:52) mjl-: mennis: sounds good!  can i ask which product/company it is?  or is it too early for that?
(21:16:19) mjl-: soul9: ah, i've thought about tht
(21:16:23) mjl-: don't remember what i did...
(21:17:02) mjl-: soul9: but the problem with irc (the protocol) is that it has a fixed max line length (of 512 chars in principle, some servers allow larger ones).  but there is a caveat
(21:17:40) mjl-: i think it's that server add your full name (user@host) to each line you send
(21:18:01) mjl-: writeraw(s: string): string
(21:18:01) mjl-: {
(21:18:01) mjl-:         d := array of byte s;
(21:18:01) mjl-:         if(len d > Irc->Maximsglen)
(21:18:01) mjl-:                 return "line too long";
(21:18:07) mjl-: it does have _something_ for that
(21:18:25) soul9: yes
(21:18:28) soul9: ah
(21:18:31) mjl-: but it probably simply doesn't take its own name into account.  perhaps we can get our own name, and use that in the calculation
(21:19:00) soul9: mmmm, that'd probably be sweet
(21:19:09) ***soul9 'd be happy to test ☺
(21:21:15) uriel: mjl-: I'm sorry, but the host where gosc.cat-v.org lived had to go offline (when my dsl line got cut, I still don't have proper internet access at home)
(21:28:59) mennis: mjl-: I've oend an issue on google code. Issue #153 with a patch to r360.
(21:31:49) mjl-: mennis: ah, good!  hope charles applies it
(21:32:02) mjl-: i've always wanted to run a native inferno, must get to it soon.  simple qemu perhaps.
(21:32:21) mjl-: uriel: no problem for me.  too bad about no adsl.  will you get another one?
(21:32:26) mjl-: and, how do you connect now? :)
(21:32:32) uriel: mjl-: you got native on the ds ;P
(21:32:33) mjl-: random wireless in the neighbourhood?
(21:32:37) uriel: yea
(21:32:38) mjl-: uriel: true :)
(21:32:41) mjl-: hah
(21:32:51) uriel: and I don't think I will get my own connection for a while, can't afford it
(21:33:38) mjl-: soul9: btw, i just did a few tests.  it seems i can get a pretty good approximation of the byte-overhead incurred by our own nick+user+hostname.  should be something i can implement.  i'm adding it to my todo list, but i don't know when i'll be fixing it...
(21:33:50) mjl-: uriel: hmm, too bad
(21:33:58) mennis: mjl-: the instruction link the bls posted to the inferno list this morning has makeing bootable floppy instructions.  This floopy image can be given to qemu.
(21:35:10) mennis: Though when I try a similar thin with vmware fusion it hangs while PXE booing the raw kernel form 9pxeload image works fine.
(21:35:41) mennis: I haven't looked closely at it because PXE works.
(21:37:02) soul9: mjl-: cool, thanks, no hurry
(21:37:16) soul9: if i really was in a hurry i'd fix it myself ;-)
(21:42:21) mjl-: hah, the boot image boots!
(21:42:35) mjl-: but it doesn't do much after it finds it doesn't have network
(21:42:39) mjl-: well, good for another time
(21:42:57) mjl-: making the hosting os provide the root file system shouldn't be hard, once there is networking
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(01:01:59) mjl-: does anyone know from the top of their head whether sys->file2chan("#s", "somefile") is valid?  mostly the first argument
(01:02:20) mjl-: since the man page says the first argument must be a dir on which #s is mounted.
(01:05:37) mjl-: looks like it works
(01:15:57) mjl-: hah, not very useful though
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(05:34:36) powerman: mjl-: if I remember correctly, it's useful when you use '#ssomething' instead of '#s'
(05:37:13) powerman: because you then can mount '#ssomething' to any dir, unmount, mount it again... and file will be still available
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(06:37:13) sqweek: mjl-: i think many ircds give you a configuration line when you login that includes maximum message length?
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(10:33:34) mjl-: morning
(10:34:16) mjl-: sqweek: hmm, could be.  but then i wonder if it is easy to parse.  i don't really want to parse all kinds of lines hoping to find something that looks like a max line length.
(11:09:06) sqweek: :zelazny.freenode.net 005 testingyo IRCD=dancer CAPAB CHANTYPES=# EXCEPTS INVEX CHANMODES=bdeIq,k,lfJD,cgijLmnPQrRstz CHANLIMIT=#:20 PREFIX=(ov)@+ MAXLIST=bdeI:50 MODES=4 STATUSMSG=@ KNOCK NICKLEN=16 :are supported by this server
(11:09:06) sqweek: :zelazny.freenode.net 005 testingyo SAFELIST CASEMAPPING=ascii CHANNELLEN=30 TOPICLEN=450 KICKLEN=450 KEYLEN=23 USERLEN=10 HOSTLEN=63 SILENCE=50 :are supported by this server
(11:10:07) sqweek: ok, but there's no MSGLEN or such in there
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(13:45:39) mjl-: sqweek: ok
(13:45:50) mjl-: btw, even if it was there, the question would be if it's "standard"
(13:45:56) mjl-: the rfc's on irc aren't that useful
(13:46:11) mjl-: they are outdated & don't match reality too much
(15:32:12) soul9: mjl-: kicklen?
(15:32:38) soul9: i wonder if it's kicklen, as in the length of a line that gets you kicked
(15:33:49) soul9: no it's not
(15:40:05) sqweek: that would be the max length of the description associated with a kick
(15:41:37) soul9: oh well, i got disconnectd from the server, but you're right, tht's not kick
(15:42:07) soul9: and ircfs or wm/irc does do the check, it's just that i don't know how i made it to send longer than that
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(17:49:06) mennis: mjl-: The HLT patch has been pushed into svn v361
(17:50:11) uriel: HLT?
(18:00:38) mennis: the native pc kernel had no cpu HLT for the idle proc so it would run the cpu at 100%  all the time.
(18:01:36) mennis: http://code.google.com/p/inferno-os/issues/detail?id=153&sort=-id
(18:02:15) uriel: ugh
(18:05:09) mennis: ugh?
(18:05:30) uriel: it is quite sad that native kernels didn't have this
(18:06:04) uriel: "i'd also made them locally but hadn't flushed them out.
(18:06:06) uriel: "
(18:06:12) uriel: hah, really? 
(18:06:26) uriel: maybe somebody will one day post an acpi implementation and we will get the same answer, haha
(18:06:33) mennis: It did once upon a time.  It fell out sometime in the past.  I didn't ask why.
(18:07:17) uriel: mennis: btw, thanks for the split iwp9 papers! I put them up on 
(18:07:26) uriel: the iwp9 docs page
(18:08:13) olegfink: uriel: makes sense to get rid of `:' in You can also download the complete proceedings:
(18:08:36) uriel: olegfink: I suck at writing, thanks
(18:08:43) olegfink: er, rather remove that line at all
(18:08:55) olegfink: you don't seem to link to the complete proceedings anymore
(18:09:05) olegfink: ouch
(18:09:11) olegfink: just ignore me.
(18:09:49) uriel: just moved things around a bit..
(18:10:49) olegfink: nice.
(18:17:13) mennis: uriel: No pblem.  Good to hear.
(18:42:25) mjl-: mennis: i saw it, cool!
(18:46:07) mennis: I'm trying to figure out where the libkeyring is missing from the mk process. I see powerman submitted an issue but the reply to it doesn't mention that aspect of the issue. (issue 125)
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(19:36:39) mennis: hmm libkeyring has been removed from the main mkfile.  I wonder if that is because of the auth revamp C is doing.  Replacing it fixes it
(19:56:34) mjl-: but libkeyring is working like normal isn't it?
(19:56:56) mjl-: i'm pretty sure i'm using many of the algorithms it provides
(19:57:44) mjl-: orrr, perhaps its a libkeyring vs libsec things, and the built-in $Keyring using only one
(19:59:32) mjl-: looks like libkeyring/ is mostly a wrapper around code in libsec/
(19:59:44) mjl-: or perhaps my checkout is out of date :)
(20:01:30) mjl-: time to update
(20:05:46) mjl-: ok, same here indeed.
(20:06:08) mjl-: now i'm too wondering whether charles is redoing the keyring interface
(20:06:22) mjl-: perhaps add some more crypto algorithms too ;)
(20:06:24) mjl-: like 3des!
(20:51:32) mennis: mjl-: Removing libkeyring from the main mkfile appears to have been an oversight.  The mkfile was changed.  It's back in now.
(21:09:26) mennis: Anyone know of a simple example of sending and receiving raw ethernet frames?  I don't need it to do much just provide an example to start with.
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(10:24:48) mjl-: good day
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(08:40:31) sqweek: wm/irc uses way more cpu time than it has any right to
(08:40:58) sqweek: emu is up there with firefox while i'm idle
(08:45:57) uriel: sqweek: I think mjl mentioned fixing something related to that....
(08:46:13) uriel: although I have had acme-sac suck up all my cpu just by moving my mouse around ....
(11:32:02) mjl-: sqweek: yeah, i've noticed that too
(11:32:11) mjl-: but i'm wondering whether it's just wm/irc
(11:32:16) mjl-: wm/man seems to eat cpu as well
(11:32:47) mjl-: perhaps more tk programs have that.  i think i'll try to add some prints to the main event handling loop
(11:52:18) sqweek: mjl-: yeah, i was wondering the same thing
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(13:35:37) mjl-: Error0, Error1: exception(string);
(13:35:44) mjl-: has anyone seen that syntax?
(13:37:53) mjl-:                         raise Error0("incompatible authentication protocol");
(13:37:54) mjl-: that, followed by e.g. 
(13:38:01) mjl-: (above lines in reverse order ;))
(13:38:33) mjl-: it's in factotum code
(13:40:19) mjl-: ah, they give typed errors, without having to prefix the error strings with some (hopefully) unique string
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(17:19:54) mjl-: hah, i have inferno factotum doing dsa & rsa authentication for ssh
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(17:23:32) sqweek: nice one
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(12:36:42) mjl-: good day
(12:43:09) soul9: good morning
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(03:09:11) criso: http://www.vitanuova.com/dist/4e/20071003/inferno.tgz
(03:09:13) criso: gzip: stdin: invalid compressed data--format violated
(03:09:53) uriel: criso: *WRONG* place
(03:10:11) uriel: criso: already told you: inferno-list
(03:10:20) criso: hey how did you get here
(03:10:33) uriel: i'm always here
(03:10:55) criso: what other channels are you on that I might also paste this in
(03:11:21) criso: ok I'm all out
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(16:14:28) KillerX [n=anant@gentoo/developer/KillerX] entered the room.
(16:34:46) underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052011.bbtec.net] entered the room.
(16:39:53) mycroftiv left the room.
(16:49:54) mycroftiv [n=infernus@h69-128-47-243.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net] entered the room.
(21:54:41) KillerX left the room (quit: Remote closed the connection).
(00:44:29) npe [n=npe@dpc6747191126.direcpc.com] entered the room.
(00:48:22) test [n=test@modemcable037.101-21-96.mc.videotron.ca] entered the room.
(00:48:41) test left the room.
(00:51:08) npe left the room (quit: ).
(00:53:41) soul9 left the room (quit: Remote closed the connection).
(00:57:33) test [n=test@modemcable037.101-21-96.mc.videotron.ca] entered the room.
(00:57:49) test left the room.
(00:59:57) soul9 [n=none@unaffiliated/johnnybuoy] entered the room.
(01:05:15) test [n=test@modemcable037.101-21-96.mc.videotron.ca] entered the room.
(01:12:17) soul9 left the room (quit: Remote closed the connection).
(01:14:10) test left the room.
(01:16:50) soul9 [n=none@unaffiliated/johnnybuoy] entered the room.
(01:54:16) soul9 left the room (quit: Remote closed the connection).
(01:58:42) te left the room (quit: Remote closed the connection).
(01:59:22) te [n=deph@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-5da3361c13a5e3bc] entered the room.
(02:05:36) te left the room (quit: Remote closed the connection).
(02:05:50) te [n=deph@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-77160bc4908fc292] entered the room.
(02:07:14) soul9 [n=none@unaffiliated/johnnybuoy] entered the room.
(02:41:12) soul9 left the room (quit: Excess Flood).
(02:42:18) soul9 [n=none@unaffiliated/johnnybuoy] entered the room.
(03:28:40) soul9 left the room (quit: Remote closed the connection).
(03:31:56) soul9 [n=none@unaffiliated/johnnybuoy] entered the room.
(03:33:41) soul9 left the room (quit: Remote closed the connection).
(03:35:09) soul9 [n=none@unaffiliated/johnnybuoy] entered the room.
(07:09:07) eno left the room (quit: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
(11:16:56) gualteri [n=none@84.123.3.224.dyn.user.ono.com] entered the room.
(14:02:54) KillerX [n=anant@gentoo/developer/KillerX] entered the room.
(14:27:48) KillerX left the room (quit: Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
(15:28:37) gualteri1 [n=none@84.123.3.224.dyn.user.ono.com] entered the room.
(15:34:42) gualteri left the room (quit: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
(17:54:33) gualteri1 left the room (quit: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
(18:02:15) gualteri [n=none@84.123.3.224.dyn.user.ono.com] entered the room.
(19:45:03) te left the room (quit: Remote closed the connection).
(19:47:10) te [n=deph@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-efe6d1b976c71158] entered the room.
(20:40:58) gualteri left the room.