Conversation with #inferno at Mon Jan  5 04:30:52 2009 on powerman-asdf@irc.freenode.net (irc)
(04:30:52) #inferno: The topic for #inferno is: Inferno and Limbo | Website: http://www.vitanuova.com/inferno/index.html | Documentation: http://www.vitanuova.com/inferno/docs.html | Wiki: http://canto.hopto.org/wiki/1/index.html | Tutorial: http://www.resc.rdg.ac.uk/twiki/bin/view/Resc/InfernoTutorial | Mailing list archives: http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.os.inferno.general
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(11:57:14) olegfink: inferno builds iyacc and limbo with the same compiler as emu, which is no good when crosscompiling
(11:57:40) olegfink: seems the simplest workaround is to redefine CC in their makefiles?
(12:03:06) olegfink: oh, seems it also wants to use the same libbio
(12:04:31) gualteri: that happens with mk SYSHOST=Linux SYSTARG=Linux OBJTYPE=arm?
(12:05:19) olegfink: yep, sorry for not stating that
(12:06:09) olegfink: hmm, seems there's no support for such a perversion as crosscompiling
(12:06:30) gualteri: wrong
(12:07:16) gualteri: imho it's one of the sanest i've seen
(12:07:32) olegfink: so I'm missing something?
(12:08:05) gualteri: that's what it seems
(12:08:17) olegfink: it builds all the libraries just once (makes sense), but they are needed both for emu (which is arm) and iyacc/limbo/etc. (which are host)
(12:09:16) gualteri: SYSHOST/SYSTARG/OBJTYPE should be enought to use $ROOT/mkfiles/mkfile-Linux-arm
(12:09:41) olegfink: yes, it's what is used
(12:09:54) olegfink: its CC, LD and AS are set to arm-gcc
(12:10:00) olegfink: which makes perfect sense
(12:10:04) gualteri: yep
(12:10:05) gualteri: what do you have at $ROOT/Linux/386/bin?
(12:10:35) gualteri: i mean your SYSHOST is 386 or arm?
(12:10:52) olegfink: a precompiled tools, but e.g. no limbo (so I will have to build it anyway)
(12:11:01) olegfink: 386, or more precisely x86_64
(12:11:26) gualteri: ok, before crosscompiling you'll have to build the binaries for your SYSHOST
(12:11:57) gualteri: so you'll have you use mk SYSHOST=Linux SYSTARG=Linux OBJTYPE=386
(12:12:30) gualteri: those binaries include iyacc and limbo
(12:12:31) olegfink: aha, and then change utils/mkfile so that it doesn't build stuff?
(12:12:40) olegfink: (on the second run)
(12:12:54) gualteri: no, you don't need to touch the mkfiles
(12:13:31) olegfink: ahhh, I'll have Linux/386/bin in path, right
(12:14:13) olegfink: by the way, why _some_ binaries are distributed (data2s, iyacc) and some aren't?
(12:14:37) olegfink: having limbo in Linux/386/bin would significantly ease crosscompiling
(12:15:19) gualteri: dunno, i've the same question
(12:15:31) gualteri: btw do you have a link for the board you're using?
(12:16:03) olegfink: http://www.atmel.com/dyn/products/tools_card.asp?tool_id=3933
(12:16:13) olegfink: not exactly this one, but close enough
(12:18:08) olegfink: my board is called at91sam9260sk, it's basically a reimplementation of this one plus spartan3e fgpa
(12:33:46) gualteri: looks great, i've run inferno on a nslu2, but only with jit 0
(12:34:02) gualteri: now i know why: http://archive.netbsd.se/?ml=Inferno-discussion&a=2009-01&m=9458899
(12:34:48) olegfink: I just figured out I'll never understand the pecularities of i686/x86_64 building on linux, so goodbye athlon 4200+, I'll better build on my P3
(12:36:53) gualteri: cc -m32 is set in mkfiles/mkfile-Linux-386, that's all is needed to forget about those peculiarities
(12:37:01) olegfink: no
(12:37:54) olegfink: /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/4.3.2/../../../../x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/bin/ld: i386 architecture of input file `/opt/home/olegfink/inferno/Linux/386/lib/libbio.a(bgetrune.o)' is incompatible with i386:x86-64 output
(12:38:23) olegfink: I don't even understand what "i386:x86-64 output" is
(12:39:10) gualteri: have you done a mk clean or nuke, to remove all the stale files that where created with SYSTARG=Linux OBJTYPE=arm?
(12:39:30) gualteri: i've hit that a couple of times
(12:40:35) olegfink: yep, just did a mk nuke now, still the same
(12:42:35) gualteri: that's weird, i haven't found troubles building inferno on x86_64
(12:43:46) gualteri: usually to make sure i do: cd inferno; rm lib*/*.{o,a}; rm Linux/386/lib/*.a
(12:45:56) olegfink: that's probably some gentoo weirdness
(12:48:15) gualteri: could be but i would not expect it
(12:49:27) olegfink: http://www.nabble.com/incompatible-with-i386:x86-64-output-td13252961.html suggests that
(12:54:10) gualteri: you could check that, maybe with something like:
(12:54:11) gualteri: echo 'main(){print("foo\n");}' > foo.c; cc -m32 -o foo foo.c; file foo;
(12:54:27) olegfink: haha, that was just me shooting myself in the foor
(12:54:29) olegfink: *foot
(12:54:47) olegfink: I forgot I've left custom LD= in utils/iyacc/mkfile
(12:54:54) olegfink: (without -m32)
(12:59:11) gualteri: seems my next toy will be a DSi
(12:59:39) gualteri: http://www.gamerstyle.com/forums/nintendo-ds-ds-lite/17576-dsi-hacked-acekard-2i-dstti-r4i-m3i-real.html
(12:59:45) olegfink: so the final conclusion is that it's 'good'?
(13:00:05) gualteri: what?
(13:00:57) olegfink: I think I've heard some controversy about the changes nintentdo introduces in DSi
(13:01:28) gualteri: about the DSi it looks promising, but yes there's a lot of mist (like region locking)
(13:02:58) gualteri: for me 16 MB of RAM, 256 of internal storage (NVRAM), 11 Mbps wifi with WPA & WPA2, and SD slot and SLOT-1 make it interesting
(13:03:46) olegfink: I'd go for http://smr.euroset.ru/catalog/misc/gps/desay/-/desay-dsa-28/ which is an arm926-based circularity atlasII SoC if I haven't more than enough embedded stuff to figure out (at the moment I've got that at91sam9260sk and a rtl8186 (mips) based wifi AP)
(13:04:26) olegfink: this gps costs about $100 and yet is a 300MHz pocketpc with all bells and whistles
(13:04:53) olegfink: cool, 386 compile finished
(13:04:57) olegfink: now I do mk clean?
(13:05:31) gualteri: you should double check, but i believe mk clean doesn't rm your Linux/386/bin and lib
(13:05:38) olegfink: yes, it didn't
(13:05:38) gualteri: only mk nuke does
(13:05:54) olegfink: I'd be more worried about if it removes all 386 .o's and such
(13:05:55) gualteri: btw i can't see that gps link
(13:06:11) gualteri: don't bother, they must be removed
(13:06:27) gualteri: as you're going to generate arm .o's
(13:06:49) gualteri: and you don't want them to mix ;-)
(13:07:08) olegfink: yep, but mk won't recompile if there's already an .o
(13:07:55) olegfink: what's with the link? doesn't load or it's just in russian? :-)
(13:08:08) gualteri: ok, np i googled for it
(13:09:53) olegfink: http://www.matchbox-labels.narod.ru/DSC07664.JPG -- here's what it's got
(13:10:50) olegfink: os.o: In function `kproc':
(13:10:51) olegfink: os.c:(.text+0xb1c): undefined reference to `__clone'
(13:10:53) olegfink: hm
(13:12:18) olegfink:         if (__clone(tramp, tos, CLONE_PTRACE|CLONE_VM|CLONE_FS|CLONE_FILES|SIGCHLD, p) <= 0)
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(13:19:09) gualteri: "Linux development: the new puzzle game now available for 386, arm, sparc, mips,..."
(13:20:17) olegfink: yes, changed __clone to clone, now seems uclibc'c limb doesn't have frexp()
(13:20:24) olegfink: s/limb/libm/
(13:20:34) gualteri: you don't need it iirc
(13:20:52) gualteri: it's an intel fpu thinguie, arm's don't have fpu
(13:21:12) olegfink: (cd 0a; mk  install)
(13:21:13) olegfink: arm-linux-gcc -static -o o.out y.tab.o lex.o /opt/home/olegfink/inferno/Linux/arm/lib/libcc.a /opt/home/olegfink/inferno/Linux/arm/lib/libbio.a /opt/home/olegfink/inferno/Linux/arm/lib/lib9.a 
(13:21:15) gualteri: s/thinguie/thingy/
(13:21:15) olegfink: lex.o: In function `ieeedtod':
(13:21:17) olegfink: lex.c:(.text+0x248): undefined reference to `frexp'
(13:21:31) olegfink: so I should make something to 0a?
(13:21:35) olegfink: (or why do I need that at all?)
(13:22:58) gualteri: see frexp(3), it should be in -lm
(13:24:25) olegfink: I know, but 1420 olegfink | yes, changed __clone to clone, now seems uclibc'c limb doesn't have frexp()
(13:25:05) olegfink: uh, wait, it doesn't link against -lm
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(13:29:25) olegfink: okay, added -lm to SYSLIBS in mkfiles/mkfile-Linux-arm
(13:29:32) olegfink: (should it be there by default?)
(13:30:27) gualteri: nope, there're no rules in Linux, so no defaults fit Linux
(13:31:07) gualteri: also note you could have added it to arm-gcc
(13:32:04) olegfink: /opt/home/olegfink/buildroot/build_arm/staging_dir/usr/lib/libc.a(strtod.os): In function `strtod':
(13:32:05) olegfink: strtod.c:(.text+0x0): multiple definition of `strtod'
(13:32:07) olegfink: /opt/home/olegfink/inferno/Linux/arm/lib/libmath.a(dtoa.o):dtoa.c:(.text+0x1b78): first defined here
(13:32:09) olegfink: cool, now I don't understand
(13:32:22) olegfink: isn't strtod defined somewhere in glibc as well?
(13:34:54) gualteri: dunno
(13:35:12) gualteri: got work to do, bbl
(13:35:16) olegfink: have fun
(13:35:21) gualteri: heh
(13:35:58) olegfink: sorry, that wasn't relevant
(13:36:13) olegfink: I'm too bugged with the linux puzzle game
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(17:04:35) olegfink: hm, so seems uclibc doesn't like libmath's strtod
(17:04:41) olegfink: why is it there at all?
(17:05:45) uriel: olegfink: building inferno for uclibc?
(17:05:54) uriel: olegfink: what kind of system with uclibc do you have?
(17:06:05) ***uriel has been looking for an uclibc-based distribution for a long time
(17:06:56) olegfink: uhm, it's olegs-very-own-distribution-consisting-of-one-busybox-binary-and-a-statically-linked-dropbear
(17:07:17) olegfink: $ du -hs .
(17:07:19) olegfink: 193M    .
(17:07:41) olegfink: whoomps, seems I need to get rid of some inferno parts
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(17:11:24) olegfink: uriel: for me, uclibc is just a handy tool for static linking
(17:11:28) uriel: 193 seems quite a lot, but then it is lunix :)
(17:11:54) uriel: yea, what I want is a statically linked non-glibc-based linux distro
(17:11:57) olegfink: the main aim of the whole system is some fpga magic, so as long as we have a working compiler we couldn't care less about the system we use
(17:13:18) olegfink: uriel: you mean already available in precompiled form or just some means for building?
(17:13:47) olegfink: 41M     .
(17:13:49) olegfink: now better
(17:15:05) olegfink: in the latter case buildroot should be nice, but again it covers quite a small number of packages
(17:25:43) gualteri: olegfink, it fails when cd emu/Linux; mk?
(17:28:17) olegfink: it's in utils/acid
(17:28:39) olegfink: fixed by (ahem) #if 0'ing strtod defintion in dtoa.c
(17:28:53) uriel: olegfink: either, just in a form that doesn't drive me to further insanity
(17:29:08) olegfink: SYS: process kbd faults: Illegal instruction
(17:29:13) olegfink: wow
(17:29:27) olegfink: either I've got a wrong toolchain or something
(17:30:58) uriel: olegfink: what kind of web browser is there for buildroot?
(17:31:14) uriel: (i seem to see a webkit package... so maybe something that uses it?)
(17:31:55) olegfink: I think embedded guys use midori with webkit when in X, and OWB otherwise
(17:32:17) olegfink: not sure if they're already packaged for buildroot, but not a huge deal otherwise
(17:32:22) ***uriel is ignorant of both, let me see..
(17:32:36) uriel: midori seems to be there... 
(17:33:39) olegfink: but midori is gtk, and I have a rather negative experience trying to get gtk to statically link
(17:33:55) uriel: hah, why I'm not surprised, sigh
(17:34:02) uriel: lets look into owb
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(17:35:56) olegfink: http://www.sand-labs.org/owb
(17:36:12) olegfink: it doesn't have much of a web browser, but it's usable
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(18:46:13) olegfink: hm
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(20:15:31) uriel: olegfink: owb seems to also use gtk
(20:15:40) uriel: (or at least they recomend using gtk)
(20:15:54) uriel: which non-gtk backend do people use with owb?
(20:15:58) olegfink: sdl
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(20:27:12) uriel: ah, I understood from the web page that the sdl backend was 'experimental' 
(20:27:28) uriel: I wonder why don't they have a pure X backend, oh well
(20:27:33) uriel: sdl sounds good enough for me
(21:51:26) uriel: olegfink: have you tried adding p9p to buildroot?
(21:51:51) uriel: (actually, I wonder if somebody has tried to use p9p with uclibc)
(21:52:04) olegfink: not yet
(21:52:13) olegfink: got, er, some exams to pass :-)
(21:52:24) uriel: heh, no worries, good luck with that ;)
(21:54:32) olegfink: actually, it's not that I extensively use buildroot for anything but toolchain build
(22:10:53) olegfink: have you seen google's dalvik vm?
(22:11:06) olegfink: it looks very familiar in some aspects...
(22:11:52) uriel: it is also register based, like dis
(22:12:16) uriel: sad thing that they didn't use dis, just like they didn't use vx32 for their whatever thing i forgot the name of
(22:13:25) anothy_x: TableSalt™
(22:14:32) uriel: no
(22:14:43) uriel: client something
(22:14:53) anothy_x: Native Client
(22:15:11) uriel: that
(22:15:26) anothy_x: often abbreviated NaCl.
(22:15:47) anothy_x: which is the chemical formula for table salt.
(22:22:45) olegfink: nah, seems I'm wrong
(22:23:33) olegfink: reading dex file format more precisely, it seems that it similar to dis to the extent of its similiarity to any other executable format
(22:29:22) sqweek: TableSalt :D
(22:43:10) anothy_x: glad somebody liked it. ;-)
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(20:55:15) mennis: I have noticed that lc works when I am in emu butmy native version doesn't seem to work.  I have it in /dis/ but when I run lc I get ./lc: file does not exist.  
(20:55:59) mennis: or:
(20:57:04) mennis: sh: lc: './lc' file does not exist 
(20:57:06) mennis: rather.
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(21:29:50) mjl-: mennis: could it be a problem with shell script in /dis ('#!/dis/sh.dis') in general?
(21:30:06) mjl-: don't know where the code to dis loads is
(21:30:24) mjl-: man & lookman seem to be shellscripts too
(21:32:42) mennis: I don't have those in my native rootfs but shutdown is a sh script too and it won't run either.
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(05:50:24) uriel: wonder how hard it might be to get one of this things this days: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simputer
(05:50:34) uriel: seems like a good platform to run inferno..
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(05:54:44) uriel: although without sd expanssion it might not be too useful
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(16:18:44) gualteri: anybody wants to increase the snr ratio of his antenna? http://www.usbwifi.orconhosting.net.nz/
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(02:15:52) npe: rafaelmoreira: sup rafa
(02:15:59) rafaelmoreira: hey!!!
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(11:37:06) Midnight: Huh. I'm just taking a look right now, but... Limbo looks like Pascal with a C-like syntax, basically. ... Why? Pascal's syntax is nicer anyway... >_>
(12:33:39) sqweek: what is the point of this question?
(12:34:11) sqweek: also, fancy seeing you here
(13:07:56) uriel: syntax is a rather minnor detail in a language
(13:08:06) uriel: limbo simply tries to pick the best from other languages
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(13:24:28) Midnight: uriel: Syntax is a major detail in how clear the presentation is, though.
(13:24:55) Midnight: It's a human detail, not a computer detail... but that doesn't mean minor :J
(13:44:19) sqweek: as a human, i'm with uriel on this one ;)
(16:19:32) Midnight: I find C-style harder to read, is all.
(16:20:05) Midnight: (Got distracted... and I may have fallen asleep for an hour or so...)
(16:27:48) sqweek: that just tells me you need more practice :)
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(17:32:13) Midnight: I've used C-style longer.
(17:32:54) Midnight: It's 'symbol soup'. Though not quite as bad as perl, admittedly :J
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