Conversation with #inferno at Wed Jul 29 22:03:46 2009 on powerman-asdf@irc.freenode.net (irc) (22:08:03) uriel: mahjadin: in theory you can (22:08:34) uriel: I don't think -H5 really works to build lunix native stuff (22:08:39) uriel: (or for much of anything for that matter) (22:08:55) uriel: but kris' linux/bsd port of kencc should work (22:11:10) vsrinivas: oh, how far is that one? (22:13:28) mennis [n=mennis@adsl-068-016-104-079.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] entered the room. (22:30:47) gualteri left the room (quit: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). (22:51:16) uriel: how 'far'? (00:53:00) npe left the room (quit: ). (01:02:31) mennis left the room (quit: Client Quit). (01:39:59) mahjadin left the room (quit: Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). (02:20:25) maht: is it finished, yes afaik (03:00:25) mennis [n=mennis@adsl-223-61-173.aep.bellsouth.net] entered the room. (03:01:22) mennis left the room (quit: Client Quit). 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(09:30:09) eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] entered the room. (09:30:51) xjrn [n=jim@astound-69-42-10-25.ca.astound.net] entered the room. (09:31:06) eno__ left the room (quit: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). (09:32:43) xjrn is now known as grrrrr (09:33:58) grrrrr is now known as xjrn (09:36:36) xjrn: ruiel and mjl are both from that vsta spinoff right? (09:37:03) xjrn: s/ruiel/uriel (09:37:23) xjrn: this c++ debate goes back at least 4 years between us in one sense (09:42:28) xjrn left the room (quit: "ChatZilla 0.9.83 [XULRunner 1.8.0.9/2006120508]"). (09:43:33) j123m [n=j1m@unas-228.rsity.ru] entered the room. (09:45:32) mjl-: morning (09:50:12) npe left the room (quit: ). (09:53:04) xjrn [n=jim@69.42.10.25] entered the room. (09:57:12) mjl-: xjrn: which vsta spinoff were you talking about? (09:57:18) mjl-: at least i'm sure i'm not part of that :) (09:58:46) mjl-: vsta seems to be completely dead (10:16:22) xjrn: mjl-: fmios, im not so sure about you but i know the jarring, crashing, bludgeoning brand of c++ rhetoric these cats speak... (10:17:28) xjrn: my thoughts at the time were to just build the tasker into some low-level c++ template API's kind of like a bootstrap hypervisor. (10:17:49) xjrn: you can imagine the ensuing debate (10:20:35) npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] entered the room. (10:24:37) xjrn: the vsta and fmios sourcetrees were incopmatible with maintenance iirc, from a c with templates viewpoint (10:24:56) xjrn: too close to the metal (10:41:28) underspecified_ left the room (quit: ). (10:46:21) underspecified_ [n=eric@walnut.naist.jp] entered the room. (11:07:44) uriel: 06:36 < xjrn> ruiel and mjl are both from that vsta spinoff right? (11:07:46) uriel: ???? (11:08:04) xjrn: uriel: how's fmios doing? (11:08:10) uriel: wtf do I know? (11:08:39) uriel: I know some of the main fmios / vsta people, I have *nothing* to do with it, and never had (11:09:08) xjrn: birds of a feather. (11:09:29) uriel: as for C++, almost *everyone* at the labs *hates* c++ (11:09:47) uriel: starting with Rob (11:10:10) xjrn: i'm unacquainted and have no interest in thier viewpoint of c++ though, so why is it so important to reiterate? (11:10:42) uriel: I don't know, you brought up this totally irrelevant vsta whatever, so thought I would make things clear (11:11:17) xjrn: you were on channel in #fmios when i encountered this very same diatribe with (your acquaintances) (11:11:18) ***uriel used to think C++ was great, that was years ago, now I know better, in great part thanks to Plan 9 and the Plan 9 developers good taste (11:11:43) uriel: xjrn: most kernel hackers (that are not braindead) hate c++ (11:11:50) uriel: xjrn: this is true even of the Linux kernel (11:11:52) xjrn: uriel: opinions are like assholes, everyone's got em (11:12:04) uriel: xjrn: except that some opnions are more valid than others (11:12:12) uriel: c++ is a disease (11:12:31) xjrn: that rule does hold true in discussions of sociopaths (11:12:37) uriel: and one of the good things about Plan 9 is the total lack of C++ compilers (11:13:07) xjrn: i'd call it a facet of information, niether good, nor bad (11:13:48) xjrn: i had this debate on any number of occasions with c programmers who are in love with thier lack of C++ ABI's, i'm cheerful they will and have already prevailed, and again, it's got no bearing on my interests (11:15:00) xjrn: to think that plan 9 makes any official position renouncing c++ and then goes and exploits enums is telling (11:16:54) xjrn: plan 9 has the coding taste of a good c++ programmer, like it or not (11:17:43) xjrn: does that order of enums come witha side of prototype enforcement too? (11:18:33) uriel: yea, a good C++ programmer sticks to C (11:18:52) uriel: and wtf is with your delusions that somehow we need to thank c++ for enums? (11:19:23) ***maht yawns (11:19:27) uriel: anyway, I got things to do, this is stupid (11:20:02) xjrn: which version of C ratified the enum keyword? (11:20:21) maht: the one that needed a committee (11:20:49) xjrn: oh you mean gcc decided to let the C coders use enums and it became a part of the C99 discussion? (11:21:17) xjrn: linus wanted stronger typing and it bubbled up into c99 discussions? (11:21:28) gualteri [n=unknown@crespins.disca.upv.es] entered the room. (11:21:47) xjrn: i was using enums in turbo C++ in 1992 (11:22:04) xjrn: are enums a simula leftover? (11:22:14) maht: plz take this discussion to hand written scrolls, ta (11:23:12) uriel: 08:20 < xjrn> oh you mean gcc decided to let the C coders use enums and it became a part of the C99 discussion? (11:23:15) uriel: stop spreading lies (11:23:38) uriel: 08:21 < xjrn> i was using enums in turbo C++ in 1992 (11:23:49) uriel: xjrn: the plan9 compilers were written in the fucking 80's (11:23:58) xjrn: i said my peice, uriel, you're part of the texas kernel trolls for whom i make a point of ending hostilities as fast as they show up (11:24:22) uriel: xjrn: I have never even been in fucking texas (11:24:43) xjrn: but you're among them, acquainted, and just as annoying as your freinds (11:24:44) uriel: and again, ask even fucking Linus, or Al Viro, or fucking Ken, what they think of C++ (11:25:04) uriel: well, if you spread bullshit and misinformation don't whine when you are called out on it (11:25:11) xjrn: i think they want the parts that help them, and gcc bent the rules over time to find what worked (11:25:43) uriel: xjrn: look moron, nobody wants any of C++, because C is just fucking fine, as for gcc, who gives a fuck? only morons use that turd (11:26:47) uriel: gcc, unlike kenc, does support C++, one of the almost infinite number of reasons why gcc is shit (11:26:55) xjrn: uriel: kenc is a peice of shit (11:26:59) ***xjrn runs (11:27:31) xjrn: arbitrary hostility is really easy, and copmletely non-sequitor in making a point (11:28:08) vsrinivas: xjrn: why is kenc bad? (11:28:17) uriel: xjrn: again, if you keep spreading bullshit, you will piss people off (11:28:35) xjrn: vsrinivas: it's just the uninformed making swweeping statements about the irrelevant (11:29:01) vsrinivas: ? (11:29:20) xjrn: i'm not sure which linux distro or apple developers don't use gcc, but i'm glad to be among the suptid majority (11:29:55) vsrinivas: is there anything in particular about kenc that you think is bad? (11:30:57) uriel: xjrn: the only uninformed statement here is yours claiming that C got enums from C++ (11:31:05) uriel: xjrn: when it is exactly *the other way around*, (11:31:06) xjrn: vsrinivas: the fact that it came up as superior to gcc, in some sweeping generalization, when i've not even heard of it, and it does not add to the knowledge in the discussion. i watched gcc experiemnt with extensions over the years, and between MS and gnu, noone else has mattered (11:31:56) vsrinivas: who said its superior /inferior to gcc? (11:31:59) uriel: fuck, a goat turd is better than gcc, being better than gcc is not much credit for kencc (11:32:10) vsrinivas: (i just appeared, sorry for no context) (11:32:11) xjrn: vsrinivas: you must have him on ignore eh? (11:32:24) uriel: at least a goat turd doesn't produce random garbage half of the time you trie to compile something (11:32:37) xjrn: uriel: im sorry you're still learning (11:32:50) vsrinivas: (i cam here to ask something about why you can't twalk along a opened fid) (11:33:19) uriel: xjrn: I'm sorry you are so incredibly ignorant and feel the need to spread your delusions around (11:33:43) xjrn: uriel: if you want to be taken seriously, provide a citation for your claim that c is the porigin of the c enum keyword (11:34:02) vsrinivas: xjrn: draft ansi c book (1984) has it, fwiw (11:34:09) vsrinivas: (draft k&r 2e) (11:34:53) vsrinivas: iirc was approved in c89, along with the rest of ansification? (11:35:29) uriel: vsrinivas: exactly, c++ got it because it was added to C (11:35:30) xjrn: vsrinivas: thanks, so was cfront then the first implementation of the enum keyword ona c-like language? (11:38:02) xjrn: i haven't read a K&R book since the 70's so i guess im behind (11:39:57) xjrn: easiest to take powerman-asdf's hints and selectively filter the expertise arriving from this channel (11:40:18) uriel: 08:37 < xjrn> i haven't read a K&R book since the 70's so i guess im behind (11:40:29) uriel: there you have your problem (or a sympthom of it) (11:46:42) vsrinivas: /win 3 (12:50:43) xjrn left the room (quit: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). (13:06:56) eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-148-131.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] entered the room. (13:18:31) eno left the room (quit: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). (13:59:51) underspecified_ left the room (quit: ). (14:18:56) xjrn [n=jim@astound-69-42-10-25.ca.astound.net] entered the room. (14:51:09) gualteri left the room (quit: "leaving"). (15:19:47) mjl-: vsrinivas: strange problem, with mount -9 to sources not working (15:19:51) mjl-: i just tested, works here. (15:19:56) mjl-: do you have it working now? (15:20:30) underspecified_ [n=eric@walnut.naist.jp] entered the room. (15:20:37) mjl-: only thing that i can think of is something that has bitten me: hitting return inserts a literal newline, and does not do the equivalent of presseing the "done" button (15:21:19) underspecified_ left the room (quit: Client Quit). (15:21:37) mjl-: or if you just added the authdom= to lib/ndb/local, you might need an "echo -n refresh >/ndb/cs", or a restart if you want to be sure (15:30:16) xjrn left the room (quit: Remote closed the connection). (15:32:37) xjrn [n=jim@astound-69-42-10-25.ca.astound.net] entered the room. (16:21:22) underspecified left the room (quit: ). (16:30:11) underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] entered the room. 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