Conversation with #inferno at Sun Oct 25 18:53:31 2009 on powerman-asdf@irc.freenode.net (irc)
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(05:45:33) digijohn: hi
(05:45:43) digijohn: I'm trying to get ircfs working with Inferno hosted on Plan 9
(05:45:52) digijohn: however, after starting Inferno, there's nothing in /net
(05:46:19) digijohn: This is a freshly-built inferno from the repository
(05:46:26) digijohn: Same code works fine on Linux
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(06:12:05) digijohn: ah, think I've found it
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(10:29:46) mjl-: good day all
(10:46:20) mjl-: time to continue on a terminal emulator...
(10:51:56) eekee: Morning mjl- 
(10:53:16) mjl-: yo eekee!
(10:53:40) eekee: how goes? :)
(10:57:03) mjl-: no problems here :)
(10:57:10) mjl-: happily coding away
(10:58:04) eekee: ah aye :)
(10:58:38) mjl-: you doing anything?
(10:58:42) mjl-: working/studying perhaps? :)
(10:58:48) eekee: I've just woken up, I'm all, like, "today is going to be a good day" some reason
(10:59:12) mjl-: good start
(10:59:23) mjl-: i had the same, had enough sleep, energy for the week!
(10:59:30) eekee: I'll have to head out, wish I had a car, but coding sounds like a good idea when I get back.
(10:59:40) eekee: yay!
(11:01:23) eekee: I have an opengl-based draw device sort of thing I want to plan
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(11:05:34) slave: olah meus amigos
(11:05:37) slave: da brasnet
(11:08:15) mjl-: eekee: that sounds nice
(11:08:35) mjl-: eekee: for inferno?  or more plan 9?
(11:08:53) mjl-: i haven't done any opengl (or 3d in general) grahpics, but probably will at some time.  interesting stuff
(11:09:43) slave: xarap
(11:10:39) eekee: mjl-: I'm finding rio more & more useful & both p9p & inferno hard to port to my Zaurus. (well, hard for me - illegal instruction generated by the compiler.) opengl I like programming, and mesa will run direct on the linux framebuffer
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(11:10:48) eekee: or output directly to
(11:11:40) slave: eekee xiu!
(11:12:21) eekee: slave: eekee G, actually. sorry ;)
(11:12:59) mjl-: eekee: so for plain linux/
(11:13:42) eekee: yeah
(11:15:16) slave: oh
(11:15:41) mjl-: so it'll be libdraw-like wrapper around the linux gl libs?
(11:15:49) eekee: yeah
(11:19:15) slave: what time is it?
(11:20:30) eekee: well actually I haven't thought it through, so far it's just a case of "I get on with opengl, I wonder if I can do this with it?"
(11:21:49) mjl-: yeah, would be good to know if such a mapping can be done properly
(11:23:00) eekee: yeah
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(14:51:26) soul9: mjl-: for inferno native the kernel is still emu?
(14:51:39) mjl-: nopes, you build it from os/
(14:51:44) mjl-: lots of code is very similar
(14:51:52) mjl-: but i don't think it's shared.  just a copy
(14:51:55) mjl-: so there is os/port/
(14:51:56) soul9: ok
(14:51:58) mjl-: just like there is emu/port
(14:52:05) soul9: ok
(14:52:11) mjl-: os/pc/ is where you start compiling for 386
(14:52:19) mjl-: you can use plan 9's 9load
(14:52:21) mjl-: including 9pxeload
(14:53:02) soul9: anyone know if laptopfs source is out?
(14:54:04) mennis: I think bls said it wasn't up anywhere yet.
(14:54:13) soul9: ok
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(17:36:32) digi9: ircfs, cool
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(19:20:22) mennis: Any hints on how to get ps like output from an imported prog?
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(19:27:07) mennis: nm got it.
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(22:05:56) mennis: hmm why do I need wm (or sac) running to be able to run stack on a process?
(22:19:24) mjl-: don't know.  i don't
(22:19:35) mjl-: i can run it without wm
(22:24:06) mennis: really?
(22:24:15) mennis: huh weird.
(22:24:41) mjl-: what's happening for you?
(22:24:45) mjl-: perhaps i'm misunderstanding
(22:25:08) mennis: so If I just launch emu and do say stack 1
(22:25:12) mennis: I get
(22:25:23) mennis: stack: can't open heap file: permission denied
(22:26:11) mennis: but after executing wm/wm and opening a shell or running wm in acme-sac I get a stack trace
(22:26:11) mjl-: and if you run from a wm/sh or something, it works?
(22:26:15) mjl-: http://www.ueber.net/who/mjl/tmp/stack0.png
(22:26:21) mjl-: must be something with /dev/user
(22:26:29) mjl-: perhaps
(22:26:43) mjl-: http://www.ueber.net/who/mjl/tmp/novt2.png
(22:30:56) mennis: Is that bsd?
(22:31:23) mjl-: jups
(22:31:49) mennis: hmm.
(22:33:17) mjl-: i can use stack with emu on linux too
(22:37:32) mennis: Hmm.  And as usual I'm on a Mac (10.5 & 10.6)
(22:40:45) eekee: do you run inferno as the same user you install as? anyone know if you should/shouldn't?
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(07:00:27) robot12: hi all
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(13:56:43) eekee: What OSs will inferno run under? All of Windows, OS X, Linux, + other unices?
(14:00:17) soul9: pretty much, yes
(14:00:25) soul9: and plan9 of course
(14:05:39) eekee: ty
(14:06:33) eekee: Limbo isn't an OO language is it?
(14:07:24) andguent: rtfm
(14:07:30) robot12: Haiku ? QNX ?
(14:07:37) robot12: SqueakNOS ? :) 
(14:07:46) andguent: UniCos????
(14:08:00) robot12: Limbo - NOT OO, Inferno IS oo :) 
(14:08:58) robot12: telnet vak.ru 4199 - use UTF8 aware terminal :) 
(14:09:07) robot12: Russian OS - DISPAK :) 
(14:09:18) eekee: ah cheers. :)
(14:09:51) robot12: дат - current date
(14:10:10) robot12: вре - date and time
(14:10:25) soul9: wtf inferno is oo? that sounds wrong :-/
(14:10:58) mjl-: it all depends on what you mean by oo
(14:11:12) robot12: soul9, file is an object with defined methods :) open close write read create ?
(14:11:15) mjl-: limbo has adt's, they have functions associated with them.  they don't do inheritance
(14:11:20) eekee: well I guess it provides encapsulation
(14:11:31) eekee: ah inheritance, yes...
(14:11:56) soul9: heh
(14:12:17) soul9: adt? mh /me needs to read up
(14:12:42) robot12: abstract data type
(14:13:57) soul9: oh, i see
(15:02:07) soul9: p9p factotum doesn't support inferno authentication right?
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(15:56:02) mjl-: yuck
(15:56:04) mjl-: these terminals...
(15:56:09) mjl-: hairy beasts
(15:56:16) mjl-: of course i knew that
(15:56:19) mjl-: but now i really now
(15:56:31) mjl-: know*
(16:03:49) andguent: ssh stuff?
(16:04:17) mjl-: it's to make ssh usable
(16:04:24) mjl-: but ssh mostly doesn't have to deal with it
(16:04:42) mjl-: usable -> useful
(16:05:10) mjl-: the terminal (emulator) really just interprets ascii control chars, and escape sequences
(16:05:20) mjl-: but eg vt220 has lots of escape sequences i don't want to implement
(16:05:52) mjl-: eg for switching to different fonts, for loading fonts, and so on
(16:06:09) andguent: urgh
(16:06:14) andguent: font switching terminals
(16:06:17) andguent: what were they thinking
(16:06:24) mjl-: cool new featuers!
(16:06:27) mjl-: features*
(16:06:47) mjl-: i don't think anything (anything currently on popular unixes) uses it
(16:07:11) mjl-: i'll have to look through the termcap/terminfo db's and see if there is a terminal definition that does away with that stuff
(16:07:15) mjl-: and only does the basics
(16:07:51) mjl-: i've started to wonder if utf-8 should work as it does
(16:07:56) andguent: what is wrong with doing vt100?
(16:08:13) mjl-: vt220 seems to be 7-bit, with high-bit chars being escapes too
(16:08:17) mjl-: not much i suspect
(16:08:31) mjl-: to be honest, i didn't know the difference between vt100 & vt220 when i started
(16:08:37) mjl-: but at least vt100 doesn't have color
(16:08:55) andguent: hm. who needs color :D
(16:09:06) mjl-: not that that matters, everyone has been bolting on escape sequences for those to their emulators
(16:09:24) mjl-: a black & white life is boring ;)
(16:09:57) andguent: i heard really scary stories about linux tty subsystem
(16:10:18) andguent: they tried to fix it. but they couldn't...too much for one person to really know what he is doing
(16:11:07) mjl-: pretty sad
(16:11:17) mjl-: and i assume noone wants to do that work
(16:11:25) mjl-: as it's boring & tedious
(16:11:44) mjl-: perhaps there are some old guys with nostalgic feelings who want to work on it...
(16:12:00) mjl-: terminal stuff in your kernel...
(16:12:09) andguent: http://lkml.indiana.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/0507.2/0741.html
(16:12:11) andguent: he tried
(16:12:19) andguent: but failed to the best of my knowledge
(16:12:53) andguent: the problem is mainly that tty is a compability desaster. all kinds of software rely on strange corner case behaviour
(16:13:10) mjl-: the tragedy of popularity
(16:13:53) mennis: I think he was working on it and got sick of being told he couldn't fix things that were broken because there were so many thing that expected teh broken-ness.
(16:15:30) andguent: yeah i think he broke su with some of his patches
(16:15:36) andguent: i dont even know how that is possible
(16:15:48) andguent: and then he got some flamewar with linus going on
(16:16:05) andguent: nothing to be proud of afterall...
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(18:03:30) eekee: and this is why I'm interested in Rio despite its failings :)
(18:03:56) eekee: because at least it isn't a unix tty
(18:06:21) mjl-: it's not just rio.  unix is poisoned throughout, with programs expecting their output to go to a terminal (emulator)
(18:08:08) eekee: indeed so
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(18:46:28) anothy_x: walking around the gsoc mentor's summit, i overheard the conversation snippit "but now i've fixed it to use termio". i cringed and moved on
(18:48:56) mjl-: smart move ☺
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(21:15:16) uriel: 14:08 < andguent> they tried to fix it. but they couldn't...too much for one person to really know what he is doing
(21:15:24) uriel: I harrassed Alan Cox about this at a conference
(21:15:26) uriel: quite fun
(21:15:29) uriel: (and sad)
(21:15:49) uriel: I mean, what the *fuck* is lunix doing with tty code in the kernel?
(21:16:49) uriel: 3:54 < mjl-> hairy beasts
(21:17:10) uriel: I read 'hairy breasts' ... (I guess just as cringe-worthy as terminals...)
(21:17:35) mjl-: hehe
(21:17:43) mjl-: btw, i think bsd's have tty code in the kernel too
(21:18:32) uriel: 12:06 < robot12> Limbo - NOT OO, Inferno IS oo :)
(21:18:46) uriel: this depends completely on your deffinition of "OO"
(21:19:02) uriel: I have people label Limbo as having "OO done right"
(21:19:21) uriel: (ie., without inheritance, but then, as far as i can tell inheritance is almost the only defining charactersistic of OO, so...)
(21:19:37) uriel: mjl-: all *nixes have tty in the kernel
(21:19:59) uriel: plus xterm has to be suid, the whole thing is so insane you could not make it up
(21:20:11) mjl-: neh, xterm is no longer setuid
(21:20:19) uriel: oh, when did they fix that?
(21:20:27) mjl-: openbsd fixed it years ago
(21:20:49) mjl-: linux seems to have fixed it too
(21:20:59) mjl-: it's setgid utmp now
(21:21:12) mjl-: because you have to keep track of logged in users in a file!!111
(21:21:15) uriel: well, I guess that is an improvement
(21:21:30) mjl-: yes, but the way to get a pty doesn't seem to be standard
(21:21:44) uriel: why on earth would xterm have anything to do with the list of logged in users in this day and age is quite amazing
(21:22:07) mjl-: pty -> logged in user
(21:22:13) mjl-: and you want to keep logged in users in a file!
(21:23:10) mjl-: anyway, the whole controlling terminal idea seems silly
(21:23:35) uriel: little related to terminals have made much sense in almost forty years
(21:23:41) uriel: s/have/has/
(21:24:06) mjl-: mixing data & code is just awesome
(21:24:13) mjl-: sounds very lispy
(21:24:26) mjl-: i wonder if lisp people have a tendency to liek terminals
(21:24:27) uriel: heh
(21:24:41) uriel: at least lisp is designed to work that way..
(21:24:47) uriel: of course, there is emacs ...
(21:25:19) mjl-: true enough, it's not like bytes read from a file willa utomatically be interpreted as lisp :)
(21:28:04) mjl-: i've got >100 pages spec from ecma (ecma 48) on terminal control codes printed!
(21:28:13) mjl-: seems better than trying to emulate a vt220
(21:28:30) mjl-: claiming to emulate some ancient physical terminal just seems silly
(21:30:02) uriel: people complain that emacs is an OS, but few notice that the terminal turned into an OS long ago
(21:30:32) eekee: heh
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(21:31:08) mjl-: uriel: the terminal emulator turned into an os :)
(21:31:15) mjl-: but it's not that bad
(21:31:21) mjl-: it's not that much magic
(21:32:03) mjl-: mixing data & code is just horrible.  and the terminal escape/control codes were a bit hard to get started with, e.g. where they were documented and so on.  i still don't have the whole picture i think
(21:32:18) mjl-: plus the extensions... mouse over terminal
(21:32:20) mjl-: just say no!
(21:32:30) mjl-: off to bake pancakes o/~~
(21:36:14) andguent: mjl-: did the st stuff help?
(21:37:14) uriel: mjl-: heh, prehaps an OS simulator!
(21:37:20) uriel: who needs xen! I got xterm!
(21:37:50) andguent: uriel: is xterm turing complete?o_o
(21:37:56) uriel: mjl-: in a more serious note, the data+code thing seems like designed to be as insecure as humanely possible
(21:38:05) uriel: andguent: I'm quite sure it is
(21:38:57) uriel: andguent: specially if you exploit one of its many security holes
(21:39:23) andguent: uriel: heh
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(22:21:29) mjl-: andguent: knowing about st is good
(22:21:47) mjl-: andguent: you use it right?  i think the website said it doesn't do utf-8?
(22:21:50) mjl-: have you run into that?
(22:22:13) mjl-: i don't understand yet why they chose to use their own terminfo definition
(22:22:14) uriel: st is a joke, you can ignore it
(22:22:23) mjl-: seems like inflicting needless pain on users
(22:22:31) mjl-: heh
(22:22:47) mjl-: uriel: it's not usable?
(22:22:51) mjl-: any particular features?
(22:23:12) uriel: I don't think it has any features really
(22:23:29) mjl-: sounds good so far ;)
(22:23:33) uriel: which would be a good thing, if it had some useful purpose
(22:23:43) uriel: yes, except that it is pretty much useless
(22:24:05) mjl-: it cannot handle enough terminal control codes?
(22:24:08) mjl-: or no text selection?
(22:24:19) mjl-: there must be something concretely wrong with it?
(22:24:24) uriel: I don't think it can handle anything
(22:24:28) mjl-: ☺
(22:24:35) mjl-: well
(22:24:43) uriel: you might be lucky if it displays text, but then, just use 9term
(22:25:12) mjl-: it does display text, tried it very very briefly
(22:25:16) mjl-: doesn't compile on openbsd though
(22:25:28) mjl-: they don't seem to use openpty()
(22:25:28) uriel: also it seems to be abandoned
(22:25:33) mjl-: probably is
(22:27:19) andguent: mjl-: i havent used it extensively
(22:27:34) andguent: mjl-: but it rang a bell when you were fighting with you term problems.
(22:28:17) mjl-: !
(22:29:16) andguent: duh...this irc client here sucks
(22:29:27) andguent: i just got a black box
(22:29:57) mjl-: i see a bell!
(22:30:04) mjl-: but something more serious going on here
(22:51:55) mjl-: time for an ircfs restart...
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(22:54:17) mjl-: that bell
(22:54:30) mjl-: it actually generated a bell in my screen, where ircfs logging output went...
(22:55:35) mjl-: i was looking for a way to make screen stop interpreting escape sequences in one of its windows, but apparently that's not one of its many features
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(23:03:38) mjl-: i guess i'll have to run my emu output through cat -v now
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(23:16:40) uriel: haha
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(10:17:44) mjl-: morning
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(13:40:56) soul9: º mk only says 'mk: install up to date' if the files are the same?
(13:41:01) soul9: s/º/so
(13:53:15) mjl-: i would think it doesn't look at the contents ("the same"), but at the mtime of source and destination file
(14:00:55) soul9: ah, right
(14:01:01) soul9: ok, that's fine i guess
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(10:42:29) mjl-: morninga ll
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(16:45:56) mjl-: novt is really becoming usable now
(16:46:05) mjl-: i made ssh able to send sigwinch
(16:46:09) mjl-: (the ssh equivalent)
(16:46:22) mjl-: so novt resizes are properly propagated
(16:46:42) mjl-: which is required for non-frustrated use of a remote screen+progs
(16:47:26) mjl-: only have to figure out why the bottom status bar from screen(1) disappears
(16:47:51) mjl-: for the term resize propagation, i do this:  ssh uses file2chan to serve a /dev/termctl
(16:48:05) mjl-: novt writes messages to it:  "dimensions %d %d", width, height
(16:48:22) mjl-: (and also "break", for the ssh-encoded break)
(16:51:29) mjl-: the default inferno font is great for a terminal btw
(17:10:03) andguent: that is great news!
(17:14:29) mjl-: yeah.  it's not too fast though
(17:14:44) mjl-: i'll claim novt gives you the good old fashioned slow dial-up connection feeling
(17:14:54) mjl-: nostalgia for free!
(17:15:03) mjl-: (though not for me, i never used a real terminal, or bbs'es for that matter)
(17:15:43) mjl-: it appears the default font is almost fixed width, but not quite
(17:15:48) mjl-: em dash (i think) is longer...
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(02:51:14) maht: Just spent a couple of hours porting http://www.tomgibara.com/computer-vision/HaarFilter.java
(02:51:32) maht: I say porting, I mean translating the limbo code from the java
(02:51:53) maht: I've not tested it yet :)
(02:52:03) uriel: maht: what do you plan to use it for?
(02:52:05) maht: it's for making wavelets
(02:52:15) maht: I want to do signal processing
(02:52:18) uriel: ah, fun
(02:53:09) maht: I was inspired by Micheal Covington's Lumpy RNG paper, in two sentences I understood how wavelets worked
(02:54:06) uriel: nice
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(02:56:37) maht: I want to time stretch video, it's been frustrating me for a long time, I went FFT route and kept reading more papers not realising it didn't solve my problem
(02:57:30) maht: I have a Limbo FFT too but haven't satisfied myself it works properly
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(04:15:06) acmeuser: /who
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(04:16:19) acmeuser: hi
(04:16:21) acmeuser: wow
(04:16:50) acmeuser: typing in text and selecting / right clicking to execute is really scary
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(04:25:20) uriel: computers are scary!
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(08:00:11) crink: hi
(08:01:18) crink: how to set PATH in acme-sac in win64?
(08:04:00) ***crink trying to compile acme-sac with visual studio 2010 beta 2
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(11:14:00) mjl-: howdy all
(11:14:11) mjl-: time to have a look at inferno's factotum
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(11:39:55) mjl-: in feedkey:  newline -> done, tab -> next entry field
(11:39:57) mjl-: http://www.ueber.net/who/mjl/tmp/feedkey-tab-newline.diff
(12:10:29) mjl-: ok, about feedkey
(12:10:34) mjl-: if i ask something like this:
(12:10:52) mjl-: proto=pass server=... user=mjl user? !password?
(12:11:10) mjl-: then feedkey will ask me for user (user?), but have user=mjl in a separate entry
(12:11:26) mjl-: i think it should use "user=mjl" to fill in a default value for "user?"
(12:11:28) mjl-: opinions?
(12:13:22) mjl-: inferno's factotum & feedkey could use a "confirm" file too i think
(12:14:16) mjl-: and it needs a mechanism for looking for keys without actually asking the user if no match is found.  that's for ssh's rsa & dsa, where a user is not going to enter a public key in feedkey (since the text would be huge)
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(15:55:25) mennis: I was thinking it should assume current user as well.
(15:55:42) mjl-: there is some code in feedkey that reads the current user
(15:56:37) mjl-: i've just implemented the confirm file
(15:57:43) mennis: It's been a while since I looked at it but I ended up writing something temporarily called setkey. Though the impetus may have been that there was no tk-less feedkey.
(16:00:14) mjl-: how did it work?
(16:00:31) mjl-: i think you can get a long way with just one thing reading the needkey file, and another writing to it
(16:00:38) mjl-: then just type the response yourself
(16:00:43) mjl-: perhaps with some copy paste
(16:00:55) mjl-: though that would should passwords in clear text
(16:03:22) mennis: It worked fine those I wasn't pre-empting by reading the needkey file which might have been handy.  I think I just added it to lib/sh/profile
(16:04:39) mennis: Since I only connected to one thing per session it was sufficient, if ugly.
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(20:25:11) ***maht has finally filtered out inferno-list and is reading like it's 25102009
(20:25:34) maht: you guys were sure having fun in October
(20:28:46) mennis: It has been remarkably vibrant lately.
(20:30:56) maht: lucky for me I got the date wrong, was 10252009
(20:31:28) maht: I don't know why I am being shown US date format but I am
(20:31:54) maht: back to coding :)
(20:32:06) mennis: You mean the correct format right?
(20:32:12) mennis: ;)
(20:51:23) maht: :)
(20:51:48) maht: I'm going to take it back to the shop and get a refund
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(01:44:04) maht: I copy / pasted the wavelet code to limbo : http://www.maht0x0r.net/wavelets/ nothing special, 9/7 seems better for compression
(01:44:44) maht: TstDwt97.b makes some samples and encode/decodes it through the working wave functions
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(02:27:24) jas: now we just ned to get a limbo native djvu (en|de)coder working
(02:31:52) jas: s/ned/need/
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(03:04:10) crink: hi
(03:44:39) uriel: djvu is great
(03:44:44) uriel: hi crink 
(03:53:04) crink: hi uriel
(03:54:10) crink: i am using acme-sac in win 7 64, i am trying to compile it with visual studio 2010 beta 2
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(13:02:19) maht: we'll never know if it worked!
(13:37:30) eekee: whut? that can't be good
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(14:57:58) C-Keen: hi there
(14:58:23) C-Keen: maybe I can get my hands on a IS2630, has anyone in here toyed with that?
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(17:35:54) anothy_x: C-Keen: ooo, yes!
(17:36:03) anothy_x: but not in a major version of inferno or two
(17:36:10) anothy_x: the port is almost certainly outdated.
(17:37:37) C-Keen: aww
(17:38:12) anothy_x: i have one or two in a box somewhere.
(17:38:24) anothy_x: i've conversed with some other 9fan that does, too. richard miller, maybe.
(17:38:43) anothy_x: i don't recall the details of getting new loads on the device.
(17:39:04) anothy_x: i recall there were jtags or similar in the lab, but i think that was during the hardware prototype days.
(17:39:28) anothy_x: if it's a more conventional flash procedure, it could be a great device.
(17:46:14) C-Keen: there has been some pages on the net describing how to upgrade the flash load
(17:47:32) anothy_x: i think the phone control part is proprietary.
(17:48:00) anothy_x: it'd still be a neat device, but it'd essentially be as integrated as glueing a phone to a small computer.
(17:48:43) anothy_x: got to run... lunch with one of my best friends at my favorite restaurant in NJ. then to drive an hour to poke a button on a computer. later.
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(16:45:52) mjl-: i just added a factotum+feedkey-like program to ssh
(16:45:56) mjl-: to manage host keys
(16:46:11) soul9: nice!
(16:46:27) mjl-: on new/conflicting host keys, it will ask whether the host key is acceptable, or perhaps should replace the existing host key
(16:46:44) mjl-: yeah, the previous scheme, asking on & reading from /dev/cons, was horrible :)
(16:49:29) soul9: heh
(16:49:38) soul9: factotum ftw!
(16:50:00) soul9: the only thing i find mind-boggling is that inferno auth is incompatible with the plan9 one
(16:59:06) mjl-: btw, i sent in a patch (as an "issue") to add a confirm file to factotum/feedkey
(16:59:14) mjl-: plan 9 auth seems to be a bit old
(16:59:29) mjl-: i bet they wanted something less centralized (more distributed) and new for inferno
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(21:20:41) anothy_x: the primary drivers for the inferno auth, as compared to plan9, were multi-domain (plan 9's was not at the time) and disconnected operation (verify independent of the signer)
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(02:56:49) crink: hi
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(09:13:05) mjl-: good day all
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(09:32:29) andguent: yiiiihaaaaaaa
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(09:43:26) mjl-: yo andguent!
(09:47:33) andguent: duh. work is calling me
(09:47:33) andguent: i pm you later the day
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(10:16:04) mjl-: cool, have fun
(11:30:31) mjl-: and all of a sudden i'm wondering why acme is not plumbing for me
(11:32:59) mjl-: the plumber is running
(11:33:17) mjl-: but if i open a .png in acme, it opens the data, does not start wm/view.  an explicit plumb command does work
(11:33:29) mjl-: i know it's been like that for a long time for me
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(15:17:07) anothy_x: is acme running in a namespace where the plumber is visible?
(15:22:17) mjl-: yes
(15:22:24) mjl-: it also listens on the edit port
(15:22:56) mjl-: so "plumb -d edit something.txt" causes a window to be opened in acme
(15:22:57) mjl-: so the basics work
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(16:54:45) mjl-: hah
(16:54:51) mjl-: appl/acme/look.b
(16:54:53) mjl-: -       if(0 && dat->plumbed){  # don't do yet : 2 acmes running => only 1 receives msg
(16:54:53) mjl-: +       if(dat->plumbed){       # don't do yet : 2 acmes running => only 1 receives msg
(16:55:28) mjl-: only one acme receiving sounds good to me
(16:55:45) mjl-: with acme's i've had to clean up the other with large amounts of files open
(16:55:50) mjl-: on plan 9
(16:55:51) mjl-: with two acmes
(16:55:53) mjl-: wasn't fun
(16:55:57) mjl-: i would say: run 1 acme
(16:57:22) mjl-: wm/dir ..
(16:57:33) mjl-: pretty sad when there is acme
(17:06:00) anothy_x: agreed on the last part. i think the rules just kinda accumulate cruft.
(17:06:32) anothy_x: as to the multiple acme question, i've had cases where it's been helpful to run different ones, either on different hosts or in different namespaces.
(17:07:00) anothy_x: i sometimes wish acme would simply ignore non-existent file requests, rather than opening the fake window and complaining.
(17:07:11) anothy_x: that'd make the multiple acme case much less irritating.
(17:07:23) anothy_x: but yes, it can be an issue.
(17:10:16) mjl-: with the multiple acme's, did you start the additional one(s) to mount a new file server first?  or was it to logically separate two activities
(17:11:24) anothy_x: i've done both. i used to regularly have a separate acme running for mail and news, with a few binds from /dev/null to hide various bits of plumbing.
(17:12:13) anothy_x: but i've had several ad hoc uses where it's been to get part of a newly- or specially-constructed namespace.
(17:12:38) anothy_x: which of course i could have done by posting the namespace to /srv and mounting from the original acme using Local, but this was faster.
(17:13:44) mjl-: yeah, and conceptually simpler as far as i'm concerned
(17:13:55) mjl-: but good point, with mail & news
(17:14:01) mjl-: with more and more running in acme
(17:14:08) mjl-: a single acme can become crowded
(17:14:26) anothy_x: i've since folded them back into the single acme, but it's imperfect.
(17:15:54) eekee: oh hey you talking about running multiple acmes? I kinda need to, but it's a nuisance when you open a file in one & it opens in all
(17:15:57) anothy_x: being able to make zero-width columns in acme would help a ton.
(17:26:13) mjl-: hah, i just ran across wm/telnet
(17:26:38) mjl-: ah, perhaps it's not a full terminal emulator
(17:27:13) mjl-: i'm not sure anymore what telnet is
(17:27:45) eekee: you send and recieve text lol
(17:28:37) mjl-: there is some kind of negotation
(17:28:42) eekee: many MUDs should work with wm/telnet if you turn your ANSI option off in the MUD. They just work on sending you lines of text & getting back command lines
(17:28:54) mjl-: and i don't know why you would make a wm/telnet when you have wm/sh you could run a "command-line" telnet in
(17:28:57) eekee: there is negotiation for terminal type I'm sure
(17:29:11) eekee: oic
(17:29:26) mjl-: "turn your ANSI option off" ← making it a "dumb" terminal right?
(17:29:27) eekee: maybe wm/telnet handles colour codes?
(17:29:44) mjl-: doesn't look like it
(17:29:53) mjl-: it doesn't seem to interpret terminal control codes
(17:30:01) eekee: well muds basically are designed for dumb terminals, but it's easy to add colour code escapes
(17:30:06) mjl-: but it does handle some erase line things
(17:30:06) eekee: oh
(17:30:09) eekee: ahh
(17:30:45) mjl-: eekee: last week i wrote novt, which is like wm/telnet but without the telnet-protocol option negotiation and with terminal control sequence interpretation
(17:31:01) eekee: yeah
(17:31:15) eekee: so different, no? :)
(17:31:29) eekee: nvm me, my brain's shutting down
(17:31:34) mjl-: only a little bit :)
(17:31:46) eekee: :)
(17:31:49) mjl-: but, someone asked on the list whether there was a program to telnet with
(17:32:04) eekee: ah
(17:32:33) eekee: well I guess the answer for some purposes will be yes...
(18:22:02) mjl-: wow, just wasted so much time trying to get the plumber & acme to show a man page...
(18:22:29) mjl-: plumbing on inferno looks like it was written in half a day, getting only half of the functionality
(18:22:51) mjl-: though i've never written proper rules either, syntax seems to cumbersome & i can't remember it
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