Conversation with #inferno at Tue Nov 10 19:36:57 2009 on powerman-asdf@irc.freenode.net (irc) (19:39:37) soul9 left the room (quit: leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). (20:01:23) rapidfx left the room (quit: "Leaving."). (21:14:19) npe [n=npe@94-224-251-223.access.telenet.be] entered the room. (21:20:48) eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-154-252.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] entered the room. (21:32:05) eno left the room (quit: Connection timed out). (21:38:10) sswam left the room (quit: Remote closed the connection). (00:01:44) raiz [n=raiz@p4FE88831.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] entered the room. (00:38:15) raiz left the room (quit: Client Quit). (01:08:43) npe left the room (quit: ). (01:53:56) vmac left the room. (01:54:07) vmac [n=vmac@h69-128-47-244.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net] entered the room. (02:26:11) soul9 [n=none@9souldier.org] entered the room. (02:26:36) soul9 is now known as Guest63255 (02:27:57) Guest63255 is now known as soul9 (06:56:43) eno__ is now known as eno (07:30:18) mennis left the room (quit: ). (07:30:42) mennis [n=mennis@adsl-065-012-170-146.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] entered the room. (07:46:50) j123m [n=quassel@unas-revda.interra.ru] entered the room. (07:51:09) anothy_x1 left the room (quit: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). (07:56:26) robot12: hi all (07:56:35) jwnz [n=user@CPE001839f8e82b-CM0017ee6363de.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] entered the room. (07:59:19) anothy_x [n=a@adsl-99-25-151-193.dsl.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] entered the room. (08:02:25) mennis left the room (quit: ). (09:13:16) j123m_ [n=quassel@unas-revda.interra.ru] entered the room. (09:14:07) j123m left the room (quit: leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). (09:14:07) sqweek left the room (quit: leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). (09:14:07) qed left the room (quit: leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). (09:15:37) qed [i=tao@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/session] entered the room. (09:46:28) eno__ [n=eno@70.137.144.173] entered the room. (09:56:56) eno left the room (quit: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). (10:06:09) sqweek [n=none@124-169-155-176.dyn.iinet.net.au] entered the room. (10:25:08) mjl-: hi robot12, all (10:25:19) mjl-: will have to take some time to look into golang (10:27:48) andguent: everyone is going nuts on go (10:28:00) maht: everyone? (10:28:04) mjl-: finally something happening ;) (10:28:09) andguent: dont deny it! :D (10:28:58) andguent: but they again managed to screw up the build system again (10:29:08) andguent: i get the feeling this is related to russ (10:29:17) andguent: the 0vx build system already was a mess (10:29:19) andguent: 9 (10:30:49) ***maht should read 9fans before irc (10:32:10) mjl-: ☺ (10:32:19) mjl-: i'm looking at an example on the ars technica page (10:32:24) mjl-: page -> article (10:32:26) mjl-: can't be right (10:39:31) robot12: hmmm (10:39:46) robot12: i've downloaded Go and compile it .... (10:41:22) uriel: mjl-: don't get your info there, get it from golang.org (10:41:36) uriel: docs are excellent, almost Plan 9 man page quality level (10:41:51) uriel: and see robs presentation, also quite excellent (10:44:11) mjl-: yeah, i've booted my windows machine to see the youtube video's... (10:44:51) mjl-: fun to see how much attention it gets. busy already on #go-nuts :) (10:45:16) uriel: it is quiet now, rob was there (10:45:51) andguent: it's kind of remarkable they stayed there at all (10:45:53) andguent: and for such a long time (10:46:10) andguent: i mean it's pretty late in us right now (10:46:27) andguent: and i think russ is in CA time... (10:46:29) uriel: now that they don't have to deal with Lucen'ts retarded management, maybe they pull off actually building a community (10:47:01) andguent: my theory is still. that either rob or ken invented an AI that keeps responding for them on irc (10:52:39) mjl-: does anyone know robert griesemer? haven't heard of him (10:53:57) robot12: no (10:54:57) robot12: http://research.google.com/pubs/author96.html (10:54:59) mjl-: nice how they've made the room at google to this kind of thing (10:57:17) robot12: google reserch collected nice reserchers (11:03:10) rapidfx [n=host666@vl-cen-ce1.avtlg.ru] entered the room. (11:17:54) npe [n=npe@94-224-251-223.access.telenet.be] entered the room. (11:31:00) mjl-: so far i don't really like all the capitalisation in the examples. brings back bad java feelings (11:31:13) mjl-: luckily that's pretty much irrelevant :) (11:31:40) mjl-: i think the interfaces are interesting, will have to look some more at that after the techtalk (11:40:33) anothy_x left the room (quit: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). (12:42:47) raiz [n=raiz@p4FE88347.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] entered the room. (12:54:16) jwnz left the room (quit: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). (12:54:26) jwnz [n=user@CPE001839f8e82b-CM0017ee6363de.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] entered the room. (13:16:37) mjl- left the room (quit: "upgrade"). (13:31:11) j123m_ left the room (quit: Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). (13:32:06) j123m [n=quassel@unas-revda.interra.ru] entered the room. (13:39:18) gualteri [n=salva@crespins.disca.upv.es] entered the room. (15:15:15) mjl- [n=none@knaagkever.ueber.net] entered the room. (15:55:26) quietdev [n=quietdev@unaffiliated/quietdev] entered the room. (16:06:14) anothy_x [n=a@adsl-99-29-34-130.dsl.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] entered the room. (16:08:08) vmac left the room. (16:08:14) vmac [n=vmac@h69-128-47-244.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net] entered the room. (16:11:08) me__ [n=venkates@c-68-55-179-48.hsd1.md.comcast.net] entered the room. (16:31:59) maht: I wrote a multi-threaded recursive copier for OZi before finding out it didn't do buffered channels, went back to single threaded (16:34:16) me__: oh, hmm, buffered channels got added in 4e inferno, no? (16:34:56) uriel: maht: you using OZi in production? have there been new releases? (16:38:21) maht: not sure, just something I thought I'd play with (16:38:27) maht: been sitting there for ages (16:39:14) maht: seeing as Brucee was going to release an SMP version at IWP9 I thought I'd see what else was different (16:40:23) me__: he was?! and how SMP? (multiple processes in Dis?). (16:41:50) mennis [n=mennis@adsl-068-016-104-079.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] entered the room. (16:44:37) uriel: this year? did he release it? (17:08:28) maht: paper got rejected (17:08:59) maht: I think that's why he went weird on 9fans (17:09:27) anothy_x: did he tell you he got rejected? (17:24:43) mennis left the room (quit: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). (17:25:03) mennis [n=mennis@adsl-068-016-104-079.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] entered the room. (17:30:29) robot12_ [n=robot12@inferno.kgts.ru] entered the room. (17:32:11) mjl-: anothy_x: do you know? (17:35:11) anothy_x: know what? (17:35:31) mjl-: why he got rejected (17:35:33) mjl-: i'm curious (17:35:38) anothy_x: oh (17:36:01) mjl-: one of my wip's got rejected. but i sent backups :P (17:36:01) anothy_x: well, i can't say definitively, not having been on the group doing reviews. (17:36:16) anothy_x: but i'm told it was rejected because it wasn't even finished. (17:38:05) mjl-: ah, nopes that does not help (17:40:00) me__: it'd be a pretty major undertaking to make dis happy in more than one thread, and then there's the complexity of mapping procs to dis-es.... i guess someone should do it someday though. (17:40:10) uriel: maht: will have to tell brucee to come to Glenda Camp, no silly rules, and he can write his paper on the fly in a whiteboard if he likes ;) (17:40:32) uriel: (while drinkinga beer by the beach :)) (17:42:07) maht: actually no, you're right. He hasn;t told me anything (17:42:18) maht: I was going by what he said in 9fans (17:43:40) maht: anyway the smp inferno is more interesting than the whys and wherefores (17:44:13) mjl-: do you know how it works? (17:44:26) mjl-: or is there some writing about it? (17:45:08) me__: well, in what sense? if you re-add the smp init code to native inferno, but don't allow more than one cpu to be in dis, that'd be sad (17:45:09) mjl-: multiple dis procs manipulating the dis objects (strings, arrays, etc) concurrently sounds like a hard thing to do. locking everywhere would slow it down (17:45:16) me__: perhaps it'd make sense to have one dis per cpu? (17:45:30) mjl-: smp inferno to me sounds like one dis proc per cpu (17:45:38) mjl-: multiple concurrently active (17:45:39) me__: then use styx to communicate? (17:46:03) me__: that'd still be fine, actually. and there'er pipes and segments for communication (17:46:10) me__: that'd actually be closer to what Midori does, fwiw. (17:46:30) mjl-: how do think want to use styx to communicate? (17:46:58) me__: if you have multiple dis vm's (one per cpu), using limbo-level channels are out for communication, no? (17:47:12) robot12 left the room (quit: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). (17:47:20) mjl-: between the dis vm's? then yes i think (17:47:34) me__: yes. i was thinking start one dis vm per cpu... (17:48:01) mjl-: i think the trouble would be that the vm procs would be handling the same strings, arrays etc (17:48:26) mjl-: executing instructions to add numbers etc would not be a problem (17:48:39) mjl-: but for array indexing, the array object must be stable during execution (17:48:56) me__: right, that's why i thought it'd be such a big undertaking (locks all-over!) (17:49:01) mjl-: yeah (17:49:09) mjl-: locks on each object sounds like a bit much ;) (17:49:34) me__: almost certainly is too much. (17:49:34) mjl-: perhaps objects can be assigned to one cpu or something (17:57:43) xjrn [n=jim@astound-69-42-10-25.ca.astound.net] entered the room. (18:01:27) robot12__ [n=robot12@inferno.kgts.ru] entered the room. (18:03:49) uriel: 15:43 < maht> anyway the smp inferno is more interesting than the whys and wherefores (18:03:56) uriel: indeed, but then Go does SMP, so.. (18:04:59) anothy_x: it's also not an operating system. (18:05:33) me__: well, an M:N thread scheduler + compiler + GC/runtime go pretty far :) (18:05:56) uriel: yet... (18:06:14) uriel: rob said in #go-lang that he would like to see a kernel written in go, it is only matter of time (18:06:18) me__: though limbo's "run in a VM" thing is pretty cool compared to native code for go. (18:08:01) anothy_x: off to feed dogs. (18:10:03) anothy_x left the room (quit: "Leaving."). (18:19:22) robot12_ left the room (quit: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). (18:50:47) mennis: huh I wonder how far out it would be to suggest a go port to dis. (18:59:48) anothy_x [n=a@cpe-76-189-197-62.neo.res.rr.com] entered the room. (18:59:59) mjl-: mennis: i doubt the go interface stuff maps well on dis (19:00:55) mjl-: hmms, i finally got around to install openbsd as a xen guest, openbsd/amd64. it doesn't run (or can create) i386 binaries though ☹ (19:12:31) anothy_x left the room (quit: "Leaving."). (19:22:50) j123m_ [n=quassel@unas-revda.interra.ru] entered the room. (19:23:05) j123m left the room (quit: Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). (19:31:27) anothy_x [n=a@cpe-76-189-197-62.neo.res.rr.com] entered the room. (19:46:27) mjl-: does anyone have an idea what it takes to get inferno running on 64 bit platforms? (19:47:15) mjl-: i bet the interpret plays at least some tricks with converting between pointers and ints (19:47:20) mjl-: eg expecting pointers to be 32 bits (19:48:59) gualteri: mjl- (19:49:12) gualteri: it takes nothing when running emu (19:49:48) mjl-: oh? (19:49:51) gualteri: in the end emu is always compiled for a 32 bits system, (19:49:56) mjl-: yes, but (19:50:00) mjl-: not on openbsd (19:50:04) mjl-: openbsd/amd64 (19:50:12) mjl-: because that doesn't run or compile 32 bit programs (19:50:19) gualteri: oops (19:52:08) gualteri: then i'm not qualified enought to answer :) (19:55:11) gualteri: bye (19:55:25) gualteri left the room. (19:58:38) j123m [n=quassel@unas-revda.interra.ru] entered the room. (20:00:24) j123m_ left the room (quit: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). (20:24:17) mennis: hmm so there is no multilib equivalent in openbsd. (20:25:09) mennis: Is there a vitualizer for openbsd that might be able to run native inferno? (20:25:43) me__: qemu (20:34:29) mjl-: hmm, now to try to write some amd64 asm... (20:34:43) me__: mjl-: what're you writing? (20:36:38) mjl-: emu/OpenBSD/asm-amd64.S (20:37:49) me__: oh, nice! 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(00:42:21) vmac [n=vmac@h69-128-47-244.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net] entered the room. (01:54:56) me___|ugrad-lab [i=[U2FsdGV@batman.acm.jhu.edu] entered the room. (02:01:30) Fish- [n=Fish@78.238.225.114] entered the room. (02:02:08) Fish left the room (quit: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). (02:18:04) mennis left the room (quit: Connection timed out). (02:22:13) mjl-: npe: did the svn -> hg conversion of inferno-npe fail? (02:22:36) npe: mjl-: still no worky? (02:22:52) mjl-: nopes (02:23:09) mjl-: still 404 for the clone, the google file browse interface gives similar errors (02:23:16) npe: hg clone https://inferno-npe.googlecode.com/hg/ inferno-npe doesn't work? (02:23:31) mjl-: $ hg clone https://inferno-npe.googlecode.com/hg/ inferno-npe (02:23:31) mjl-: abort: HTTP Error 404: Not Found (02:23:35) npe: indeed. (02:23:38) npe: I know. (02:23:47) npe: I requested(and got more space). (02:24:03) npe: switching from svn probably broke its little mind because I was over the limit. (02:24:11) mjl-: :) (02:25:09) npe: lol... now it's completely broken. (02:25:14) npe: it won't even change back to svn. (02:25:26) mjl-: ugh (02:27:04) mjl-: so... google has to fix it? (02:27:45) mjl-: in theory, i bet you could do a local svn->hg transform, reset the google repo, and push the local hg repo to it (02:28:07) mjl-: i don't even know if a checked out svn has all the changes for a repo (02:29:31) anothy_x left the room (quit: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). (02:31:06) npe: mjl-: http://code.google.com/p/support/issues/detail?id=3284 (02:33:02) npe: bedtime here :) talk to you tomorrow. (02:33:23) mjl-: nice (02:33:26) mjl-: sleep well! (02:35:03) mjl-: there's already a response (02:36:40) npe: woot... hope they fix it. but now I really will sleep. (02:46:52) megaboz [i=none@201.80.227.35] entered the room. (03:16:11) npe left the room (quit: ). 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