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(10:04:01) keiya_: Why do people do things like XML-RPC, where HTTP is used as nothing more than a wrapper and they could just do raw tcp? (10:04:27) keiya_: At least with 9p as the wrapper you have the excuse that it lets you mount it into a file tree nicely, even if it would be trivial to do that on the client end. (10:16:12) uriel: http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/xml/ (10:16:27) uriel: "Some part of me desperately wants to believe that XML-RPC is some kind of elaborate joke, like a cross between Discordianism and IP Over Avian Carriers." -- Ex-Cyber on #plan9 (10:17:22) uriel: I think the question is really why the hell people do things like XML, and I guess those kinds of questions could be devated by philosophers for centutures (14:42:50) keiya_: XML-RPC is just one example that's relatively well-known. I agree it's silly. (14:43:44) keiya_: (I don't have anything against XML, when it's used as a markup language. It's sorta ugly, but it works well enough. It's when people use it as a serialization format that it gets to me) (14:49:04) keiya_ is now known as Keiya (15:18:16) robot12 left the room (quit: "Ухожу я от вас (xchat 2.4.5 или старше)"). (15:21:04) Keiya: I've not actually seen anyone propose a decent replacement for XML-as-a-markup-format for arbitrary markup (meaning /not/ necessarily presentational "this is a header" stuff, so html, markdown, latex, troff, etc are /not/ valid answers.) (15:23:07) mjl-: doesn't seem xml does mark up (15:23:08) mjl-: that's css (15:23:11) mjl-: xml is just structure (15:23:12) mjl-: like json (15:23:21) mjl-: at least according to the worknet dictionary (15:23:30) mjl-: $ wn markup (15:23:30) mjl-: markup (15:23:30) mjl-: n 1: the amount added to the cost to determine the asking price (15:23:30) mjl-: 2: detailed stylistic instructions for typesetting something (15:23:30) mjl-: that is to be printed; manual markup is usually written on (15:23:31) mjl-: the copy (e.g. underlining words that are to be set in (15:23:33) mjl-: italics) (15:23:44) mjl-: xml is not about 2 (15:24:34) mjl-: worknet->wordnet (15:25:26) Keiya: Well. The /strict/ definition of markup, perhaps not, but a slightly more generalized concept, it does. (or at least it does associations on which to build such) (15:25:59) mjl-: if you combine json with css, i think you can do very similar things to xml (15:26:03) mjl-: (xml and css) (15:26:28) Keiya: Can? Sure. You're just reversing it though (15:26:50) Keiya: You're trying to use a data serialization format as a markup format instead of markup as data serialization. (15:27:01) Keiya: It's still going to be verbose, unweildy, and ugly as sin (15:27:34) mjl-: not sure i follow (15:27:40) mjl-: xml & json are both data serialisation formats (15:27:56) Keiya: NO THEY ARE NOT. (15:28:11) Keiya: What does the M stand for in XML? (15:28:11) Keiya: MARKUP (15:28:40) mjl-: ok, i'll define JMSON (15:28:46) Keiya: It is meant for documents where the TEXT has some ATTRIBUTES. If you strip out the xml, the text should, ideally, still make sense. (15:28:46) mjl-: same format as json, but with markup in the name (15:29:02) Keiya: mjl-: ... that's not how it works. >_> (15:29:21) Keiya: mjl-: Have you ever used latex? Or troff? (15:29:24) mjl-: yes (15:29:28) Keiya: Would you replace those with a json format? (15:29:50) Keiya: That's what you're suggesting. (15:30:07) mjl-: not really (15:30:21) Keiya: Or HTML of the readable variety like this: (15:30:22) Keiya: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~sjm217/projects/markup/survey/ (15:30:38) mjl-: just as i would not easily use xml+css instead of latex/troff, i would not easily use json+css instead of latex/troff (15:30:41) Keiya: Would you do /that/ in json? (15:30:51) ***Keiya sighs (15:31:19) mjl-: thinking that xml is sensible if you strip out the tags, i've never heard that as a goal of xml (15:31:52) Keiya: mjl-: It's not, it's a rule of thumb for when it's a good format to use (15:31:59) Keiya: 9 (15:32:07) Keiya: (Almost everything using it fails this test) (15:33:07) mjl-: i don't agree (15:33:16) mjl-: but i don't see this discussion going anywhere... (15:33:21) mjl-: so i'm back to writing code! (15:36:41) Keiya: Well (15:36:56) Keiya: Something like KeiyaBachhuberkeiyakins@gmail.com[redacted][redacted]
blah I don't want to fill this out, you get the idea
(15:37:04) Keiya: Is DEFINATELY using XML wrong (15:37:36) Keiya: (Compare a sexp representation of the same information: (person (name Keiya Bachhuber) (email (home keiyakins@gmail.com)) (phone (home [redacted]) (cell [redacted])) (address ...)) ) (15:39:32) Keiya: On the other hand, Ten thousand years can give you such a crick in the neck! is, while a little silly and condenced, a more reasonable use (15:40:16) Keiya: (I'm trying to write down the intonation and 'style' of Genie's first line in Aladdin, there.) (15:41:38) Keiya: (Another way to look at it: If you're trying to build a tree, don't use XML. If it (15:41:54) Keiya: (Another way to look at it: If you're trying to build a tree, don't use XML. If it's a stream, with some markings in it, then XML might be the right choice) (15:50:29) mjl-: i'm afraid many uses of xml are the first case (15:50:47) mjl-: and for the second case, i prefer a troff-like approach (15:51:13) mjl-: xml's <>'s and nesting, just as latex's \{..} are just a pain to type (15:52:02) Keiya: mjl-: That's taste. I find XMLish easier to read and less interrupting of the flow of the text when reading it than troff's tags. (15:52:09) Keiya: I (15:52:13) Keiya: I (15:52:13) Keiya: ah, I can't type (15:52:24) mjl-: i've written tools with troff ".cmd"-like syntax, and inline style sexpr-like, with {}'s (because they are less common in normal text) (15:52:26) Keiya: I'd rather use [] than <>, but the general idea holds (15:56:21) Keiya: mjl-: Yeah, like I said, at that point it's just taste. It (15:56:55) Keiya: mjl-: Yeah, like I said, at that point it's just taste. The basic meaning is still the same, and the formatting differences are... fairly trivial (16:01:02) Keiya: But, yeah, earlier you suggested JSON? (16:01:15) Keiya: {"speech":[{"largeham":"Ten thousand years"}," can give you ",{em:"such"}," a crick in the neck!"]} (16:01:22) Keiya: Ten thousand years can give you such a crick in the neck! (16:01:43) Keiya: "It's a few characters shorter, sure, but it's a lot harder to read and it's 'unnatural'. (16:03:35) mjl-: it's so semanticweb2.0! (16:03:57) Keiya: Not really. (16:04:44) mjl-: no, not really (16:04:57) Keiya: It's not saying that this thing's Large Ham "Ten thousand years", it's saying that you're supposed to speak Ten thousand years as TEEEEENNN THOOUUUSSSAAAND YEARSS! (16:08:07) mjl-: but your original point holds (16:08:15) mjl-: it sucks when people use xml for data serialization (16:08:21) mjl-: and that's many uses (16:08:52) Keiya: Yeah, I'm just bitching that people will whine about that when it's not relevent. 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(20:24:00) Keiya: uriel: You are an idiot (20:24:17) Keiya: "Harmful: UTF-16, UTF-32, Latin-1, other encodings. Less harmful: UTF-8." (20:24:35) Keiya: UTF-8 is an absolute /nightmare/ to use for many string operations. (20:25:03) sqweek: so convert to a 16 bit representation (20:25:09) Keiya: Want to slice it on a character boundry? You have to actually read and interpret the whole thing. (20:25:19) sqweek: uriel's problem is with UTF-16 as an /interchange/ format (20:25:29) Keiya: sqweek: 16 is just as bad the moment you go outside the BMP, but anyway... (20:25:50) sqweek: and the advantage of utf-8 there is it is backwards compatible with ascii (20:25:57) sqweek: so you sidestep the codepage nightmare (20:26:05) mjl-: just in case you need klingon! (20:26:22) Keiya: mjl-: Or a halfway-sane encoding of asian languages. Whichever. (20:26:31) sqweek: Keiya: well use however many bits you want, utf-8 scales (20:26:57) Keiya: (Seriously, can they just depreciate the CJK unified crap? It DOESN'T WORK.) (20:28:34) Keiya: (Also 1/2 of all that stuff is 'i don't like it so it sucks', and another quarter suggests things that solve other problems as 'alternatives') (20:28:35) sqweek: there's lots of junk in unicode, sure (20:30:00) Keiya: (see XML -> JSON, CSV.) (20:31:35) mjl-: Keiya: so you use utf-16/utf-32 because you need to seek to some character in a file? (20:31:49) mjl-: or why exactly would you use utf-16/utf-32? (20:33:07) Keiya: mjl-: Mostly for efficiency while manipulating it. (20:33:49) mjl-: and do you actually use it? (20:34:19) sqweek: why do you care about the encoding when manipulating it? (20:34:44) sqweek: take a look at plan 9's utf library (20:34:55) mjl-: i suppose he manipulates directly on file (20:35:06) Keiya: UTF-8 is absolute /crap/ for any sort of efficient string manip. Most of the time it's faster to read it in, convert it, do your manipulation, convert back, and write out again. (which is what I usually do, because for texts using latin as your main language the other encodings are wasteful) (20:35:07) mjl-: e.g. write a new char to some character-offset in a file (20:35:35) sqweek: Keiya: that's exactly the approach plan 9 uses (20:35:41) Keiya: (Though UTF-8 is terrible when dealing with, say, Traditional Chinese) (20:36:11) sqweek: p9 only deals with one encoding, utf-8 (20:36:13) Keiya: I figured, since it takes less than an hour to do things. :P (20:36:55) sqweek: (excepting the mail system and such where external messages come in possibly bizarre encodings) (20:37:25) Keiya: sqweek: Except for internally, which is what I was refering to. (20:37:41) sqweek: that's not an encoding! (20:37:46) sqweek: that's an internal representation (20:38:29) Keiya: As long as plan9 isn't falling for the 16-bit psudounicode trap, though... >_> (20:38:33) uriel: Keiya: I will just say: you clearly have *no fucking clue what you are talking about* (20:38:48) Keiya: uriel: In some cases. (20:38:53) Keiya: In others, you don't. (20:38:53) uriel: Keiya: I recommend before making such retarded claims you fucking learn how utf-16 works (20:39:04) sqweek: this is the beauty of utf-8 - no other encoding works without metadata (20:39:17) Keiya: uriel: UTF-8 uses substitution pairs. (20:39:21) Keiya: er (20:39:23) Keiya: 16 (20:39:30) Keiya: That was a typo. (20:39:35) uriel: substitution pairs?!?!? (20:39:35) Keiya: Anyway, the one that /really/ gets me is XML (20:39:49) sqweek: pretty sure p9 uses 16-bits internally by default (20:40:18) sqweek: but there's a single #define in utf.h you can up to increase that (20:40:29) Keiya__ left the room (quit: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). (20:40:35) Keiya: sqweek: Great. So it's doing the same ignore-fifteen-out-of-every-sixteen-codepoints bulcrap as WinNT >_> (20:41:00) Keiya: Oh, excuse me, they're /surrogate/ pairs. (20:41:27) uriel: 18:30 < mjl-> or why exactly would you use utf-16/utf-32? (20:41:27) uriel: 18:31 < Keiya> mjl-: Mostly for efficiency while manipulating it. (20:41:27) sqweek: pretty sure p9 is easier to fix that winnt ;) (20:41:35) sqweek: s/that/than (20:41:37) uriel: Keiya: ok, you clearly are a fucking retarded idiot (20:42:02) mjl-: uriel: i bet keiya mmaps files and modifies characters. (20:42:04) Keiya: uriel: You are too. (20:42:13) uriel: to claim that utf-16 is more 'efficient' to maniuplate is beyond ludicrous (20:42:29) uriel: mjl-: wonderful idea! pfff... (20:42:41) Keiya: uriel: 16 isn't. 32 is. (20:42:48) anth_x: well, this is an insightful technical conversation. (20:42:53) anth_x: "you're a fucking idiot!" (20:42:59) uriel: Keiya: except that utf-32 takes four fucking times the cache space! (20:43:00) anth_x: "no, *you* are!" (20:43:08) anth_x: guys, this is irc. we're all fucking idiots. (20:43:12) uriel: anth_x: well, he clearly *is* a fucking idiot (20:43:16) sqweek: anth_x: i didn't see any "no" ;) (20:43:20) uriel: even more so than most people in irc (20:43:38) mjl-: anth_x: ☺ (20:43:53) Keiya: copying 5*4 bytes is faster than parsing the string and copying some random number of bytes between five and fourty or whatever it is. (20:43:58) anth_x: uriel: maybe. i don't know the guy. he's *wrong*, but can't we just stick with that? then you at least have some chance of mounting a real argument. (20:44:05) anth_x: but the, i keep thinking that's the point. (20:44:07) anth_x: and i'm wrong. (20:44:10) uriel: Keiya: and guess what, you can use almost every standard C string manipulation idiom with utf-8, you can't with utf-32 (20:44:22) Keiya: uriel: You, on the other hand, support /JSON/ as a replacement for SGML and XML. (20:44:42) Keiya: Do you use vinegar to make things sweeter, too? (20:44:47) Keiya: Good thing I hate the C idioms, then. :P (20:44:52) uriel: Keiya: anyone that is not clinically fucking mentally demented knows json is a huge improvement over sgml and xml (20:45:12) anth_x: Keiya: have you ever had a good traditional balsamic? i think you know not of what you speak. damn straight i use it to make things sweeter. (20:45:17) Keiya: uriel: No. It's an improvement /for things XML is not designed for/ (20:45:40) anth_x: mmm, balsamic. (20:45:47) Keiya: Have you seen my examples of a horrificly terrible markup in json? (20:45:49) uriel: Keiya: xml is designed to make people's lives misserable and to require people to buy more hardware (20:45:54) Keiya: It really is hard to read (20:45:55) anth_x: i have a nice tangarine-hinted one here, in addition to my traditional. (20:46:03) Keiya: anth_x: OK, true. >_> (20:46:14) sqweek: shit that reminds me, i was going to cook tonight (20:46:20) sqweek: no wonder i am hungry (20:46:23) Keiya: uriel: Sure, if you only have a line printer with one font. (20:46:23) mjl-: :D (20:46:24) anth_x: Keiya: oh, you admit you know not of what you speak? (20:46:32) anth_x: good, i just won the irc argument, then. (20:46:34) anth_x: we can all stop now. (20:46:55) mjl-: inferno ruleszzzz (20:47:19) ***uriel goes back to try to keep his head from exploding, fucking cold (20:47:38) anth_x: uriel: do you happen to know of anything for parsing/handling json on plan9? (20:48:01) uriel: anth_x: there is an inferno lib to parse json (20:48:14) anth_x: i was hoping for something more direct (c, rc) (20:48:19) anth_x: i know about the inferno stuff (20:48:20) uriel: and I guess there are a few C ones out there, but never had to use any of them... (20:48:33) anth_x: k, never mind then. (20:48:44) Keiya: {"doc":[{"h1":"JSON IS BETTER"},{"p":["Clearly JSON is a better ",{"em":"markup"}," language than XML."]}]} (20:48:44) uriel: Go has quite good json support, so if you can get your hands on the port... (20:49:05) anth_x: Keiya: stop typing line noise. (20:49:07) Keiya: (God that was a pain to write) (20:49:19) mjl-: Keiya: so what's you interest in inferno? (20:49:35) Keiya: anth_x: That was JSON for what XML is designed for (not used for >_>) (20:49:41) uriel: Keiya: if you are brain damaged and try to build everything in the same way XML forces you to, don't complain (20:50:18) anth_x: Keiya: can you provide an authoritative citation that it was designed for that and not the structured data uses? (20:50:35) Keiya: mjl-: Mostly use as a remote control, once the DS port is stable... (20:50:48) Keiya: anth_x: Well, OK, not sure with XML. SGML was, though. (20:50:57) me____: mjl-: btw, i'm using your inferno ext2fs because it reads a certain filesystem dragonfly's ext2fs doesn't. :) (20:51:00) Keiya: uriel: So you don't like troff either? Or LaTeX? (20:51:10) me____: Inferno, the portable filesystem thingy. (20:51:20) Keiya: Which use the same model for that sort of stuff, by the way. (20:51:34) uriel: Keiya: I like troff (20:51:54) Keiya: uriel: Hipocrite. (20:51:57) Keiya: You should use something like JSON. (20:52:08) uriel: god you are really retarded (20:52:10) Keiya: (And I know I can't spell, by the way.) (20:52:26) Keiya: Troff's model is basically identical to XML's. (20:52:53) Keiya: It just uses .commands instead of (20:53:03) uriel: yea, and the model of nuklear weapons is basically identical to fireworks! (20:53:22) Keiya: (Also, get rid of the god damn papyrus. Seriously, it's as overused and ugly as comic sans) (20:53:35) anth_x: Keiya: translate the troff ".BR this is a stupid argument" into xml. (20:54:05) mjl-: me____: hah, nice (20:54:07) anth_x: not the same model at all. (20:54:16) mjl-: me____: do you know why dragonfly's ext2fs doesn't grok it? (20:54:30) mjl-: perhaps the inferno ext2fs does less error checking...? (20:54:35) mjl-: (and i need to fix that ;)) (20:55:06) Keiya: I don't remember troff that well, but, "
this is a stupid argument". Or possibly "
this is a stupid argument
". (20:55:50) anth_x: s/that well/at all/ (20:56:16) me____: mjl-: yes, if the fs was created with either of sparse_super or resize_inode, (or dir_index), dfly won't mount it. (20:56:27) me____: the first two work in your ext2fs, i've not tried the third. (20:56:42) Keiya: There are a few annoying quirks in xml, but as a markup language that isn't restricted to a few predefined things (and believe it or not, sometimes I want to present inlined code differently than normal text!)... (20:56:44) me____: (it fails with unsupported mount flags) (20:56:55) Keiya: And he doesn't even propose using something like markdown as a replacement. (20:57:08) uriel: Keiya: where the hell does XML define the semantics of
uhu? (20:57:28) sqweek: for the record: this is a stupid argument (20:57:31) uriel: and why don't you shut up and go write an XML parser (20:57:53) uriel: (hell, or any code that has the disgrace of having to manipulate xml in any way...) (20:58:14) Keiya: uriel: XML parsers /are/ a pain to write. But you rarely need to even /use/ them if you're using it right. (20:58:19) uriel: (but given how damaged your brain clearly is, you might even think xslt is a great idea!) (20:58:29) Keiya: Basically the only reason to use XML is to shove it to a web browser. (20:58:45) Keiya: I never understood the point of XSLT, actually. >_> (20:59:05) uriel: except that nobody uses xml to shove it to web browsers, they use HTML (20:59:10) Keiya: But, nyeh, whatever. (20:59:19) me____: they're a lot like pixel shaders for structured docs :) (20:59:19) Keiya: I know you hate the concept of displaying documents, too. (20:59:39) uriel: even the html5 folks have had the common sense to completely abandon xml (20:59:44) anth_x: i hate displaying documents. they should all be write-only. (20:59:55) Keiya: me____: ... That actually made a lot of sense. (20:59:56) anth_x: i know what i said, damint! i shouldn't have to prove it to anybody! (20:59:58) sqweek: would save time in meetings (21:00:11) anth_x: amen to that. (21:00:11) Keiya: uriel: Not completely, it's one of the two defined forms. (21:00:26) uriel: Keiya: one of which nobody uses or gives a shit about (21:00:43) Keiya: But anyway, I suppose "XML" is a little overspecific. (21:00:49) Keiya: uriel: There is that. (21:00:54) uriel: it is only there to make the retards that invested the last ten years fucking around shit with xml not feel misserable enough to kill themselves (21:01:00) anth_x: y'know, just so you know, it's actually pretty obvious what's going on here. (21:01:17) Keiya: (I've always written my HTML documents to be valid xml except the /s anyway... it's just easier to parse in my head, for me) (21:01:17) anth_x: you both came to the "discussion" with a different set of assumptions regarding what it was about. (21:01:30) Keiya: Well, and the namespaces and all that crap. (21:01:31) anth_x: instead of stating them and clearing up the differences, you both started right in with the name calling. (21:01:36) Keiya: But yeah. (21:01:44) anth_x: it's a great case study. (21:01:59) uriel: anth_x: no, the difference in assumptions was that Keiya thinks xml is a good idea, and I think it is *always* a really retarded idea, same with utf-16 (21:02:15) sqweek: anth_x: in psychology, or comedy? (21:02:18) Keiya: anth_x: No, I know full well uriel doesn't have any concept that you might us a markup language for markup instead of data, as made obvious by his site. (21:02:25) anth_x: but you don't mean the same things by "xml" or "good idea". (21:02:34) Keiya: XML is overengineered and... crappy. (21:02:46) uriel: Keiya: did I ever say anything against markup languages? XML sucks for everything, markup included (21:02:51) Keiya: But the basic syntax, which is all I really care about from it, is perfectly usable. (21:03:05) anth_x: Keiya: and you've got this particular (weird, imho) definition of "markup" that excludes what xml is mostly used to, um, mark up. (21:03:35) uriel: Keiya: so, you even admit you are not even talking about xml, and wont even defend it, and already admited the only thing you would use xml for is to shove it into a browser, which you agree nobody bothers doing because it sucks so much (21:03:41) Keiya: anth_x: Mostly, it's forced into service as a non-markup data storage mechanism (21:03:45) anth_x: but there's no point now. once the "your and idiot"s start, the argument's over. (21:04:06) ***Keiya shrugs. (21:04:08) anth_x: back to finding someone to plow my friend's driveway. (21:04:26) Keiya: It's more that you propose solutions to a different problem as alternatives. (21:05:36) uriel: Keiya: the only solution I propose is *not* using XML, XML is a problem, and the solution is to use something else, (21:06:47) Keiya: Another example is this: Jabber and XMPP, use IRC. (21:07:09) Keiya: IRC's concept of presence is virtually non-existat. (21:07:13) uriel: XMPP is certainly one of the worst diseases to aflict the softare industry in recent time (21:07:16) Keiya: *existant (21:07:27) uriel: and XMPP's concept of sanity is nil (21:07:37) Keiya: And yes, being able to tell at a glance whether someone is asleep, at work, in class... is useful. (21:07:56) Keiya: I agree XMPP is just a /bizzare/ design and I'd hate to implement it... (21:08:06) uriel: fuck, after over ten years working on that shit, and after *hundreds* of specifications, jabber still can't fucking do group chat properly! (21:08:15) Keiya: But again, IRC solves a different proble, (21:08:37) uriel: something any 12 years old could implement on an irc client and server in an afternoon, this whole fucking industry built out of nowhere can't solve in ten fucking years (21:08:51) uriel: xmpp doesn't solve any problem, other than creating jobs for retards (21:09:34) uriel: and while I think prividing jobs for retards is a laudable goal, I don't think it is worth fucking the rest of the world in the ass (21:09:36) Keiya: And after three times as long, irc still doesn't have a proper concept of presence or any sort of universality of names. (21:09:43) Keiya: I (21:10:02) Keiya: I'm connected to /one/ xmpp server right now for all my friends, as opposed to, currently, /six/ IRC servers. (21:10:16) uriel: Keiya: because IRC doesn't give a fuck about that, irc might suck, but it is still infinitely more reliable and more useful than xmpp (21:11:09) Keiya: uriel: It's solving a different problem. (21:11:21) uriel: Keiya: maybe because being able to connect to multiple servers is like, fucking trivial, while most jabber clients can barely connect to a single server (21:11:33) uriel: Keiya: jabber is not solving any problem, it is creating many problems, (21:11:37) Keiya: (Also, for all its flaws, XMPP's idea of s2s makes irc's look like a jar of moldy poop (21:11:56) Keiya: uriel: Okay, it's /attempting/ to solve a different problem (21:12:00) uriel: Keiya: I guess that is why all jabber clients and server are still a pile of barf (21:12:25) uriel: yes, as I said, xmpp attempts to provide jobs for retards, just like CORBA (21:12:28) Keiya: uriel: No, that's because the protocol implementation is utterly braindead. (21:12:42) ***Keiya sighs (21:12:46) uriel: Keiya: everything about XMPP is utterly braindead (21:12:55) sqweek: s2s? (21:12:58) Keiya: uriel: No (21:13:11) Keiya: Just because you don't care about certain features, doesn't mean other people don't. (21:13:22) ***Keiya shrugs (21:13:28) Keiya: Honestly, I just use AIM. (21:13:28) Keiya: It (21:13:40) Keiya: It's proprietary, and it sucks, but it works. (21:14:07) uriel: well, I just use irc, it sucks, it is retarded, but it fucking works much better than xmpp ever will (21:14:26) mennis: so I guess today we have the angry-everything-sucks uriel. (21:14:27) uriel: (and btw, the only way to make xmpp even remotely tollerable is bitlbee) (21:14:54) Keiya: uriel: One word can show you that xmpp's idea (not implementation) of S2S is better, though. (21:14:58) Keiya: Netsplit. (21:15:28) Keiya: One server going down should /not/ interrupt the chat between two people on two other servers! (21:16:09) anth_x: mennis, yup, but he found an equally fun playmate! (21:16:14) anth_x: snowplow services bite. (21:17:02) Keiya: Actually, I'm trying to get so fucking pissed I give up and sleep. Seriously, I actually have a goal in mind, and it's insomnia circumvention >_> (21:17:09) mennis: the market hasn't been the same since Mr. Simpson hung up the jacket. (21:17:29) Keiya: uriel: Have you looked at PSYC, by any chance? (21:17:58) sswam1 left the room (quit: "leaving"). (21:18:50) Keiya: (Which the prefered way to use is actually as an alternate S2S protocol with IRC clients, currently... :P) (21:22:36) uriel: I'm certain there are better alternatives to irc, it clearly sucks, haven't bothered to look for them because i don't care enough (21:24:48) uriel: "PSYC uses both unicast and multicast for transporting data." this is a big indicator of SUCKAGE (21:25:00) uriel: as is that it apparently can use both tcp and udp (21:25:22) uriel: "Extensible: All protocol keywords have an extensible naming strategy which allows to define new ones which inherit the behaviour of existing ones." (21:25:30) uriel: this indicates even further fucking retardedness (21:25:58) Keiya: uriel: On the other hand (21:26:27) Keiya: It actually gives you some way to implement presence other than changing your nickname and driving everyone crazy. (21:26:39) sqweek: irc has /away (21:26:54) uriel: and if you don't want to drive people crazy, don't fucking change your nick (21:27:19) Keiya: sqweek: okay, true, but no client actually presents that sanely >_> (21:27:39) uriel: to change your nick to indicate that you are taking a shit or whatever is retarded and not welcome in any sane irc context (21:27:49) sqweek: mostly because it would imply polling the whois information ;) (21:28:15) Keiya: Also, "# Saying that Java is good because it works on all platforms is like saying anal sex is good because it works on all genders. -- Unknown" <- That's incorrect, it would imply Java is good, but that's the wrong reason. :P (21:29:31) Keiya_ [n=keiya@pool-71-98-17-253.mdsnwi.dsl-w.verizon.net] entered the room. (21:32:00) Keiya_: Hmm... it worked, I'm getting sleepy. (21:32:09) Keiya_: Thanks for letting me get angry at you! (21:33:26) rapidfx left the room (quit: "Leaving."). 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