Conversation with #inferno at Wed Mar 17 15:38:29 2010 on powerman-asdf@irc.freenode.net (irc)
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(17:03:28) anth_x: my powered-off laptop never generates errors.
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(17:20:59) mennis: How do you know?
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(17:21:34) anth_x: hah. good point.
(17:22:01) anth_x: it never generates user-visible errors. it never behaves in an unexpected way.
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(17:41:49) mjl-: yay, just managed to finally _write_ to the sd card on the sheevaplug
(17:41:56) mjl-: should not be far off running kfs on it
(17:42:30) mjl-: the sata has also shown first signs of life (i.e. i've been able to read/write data to my fancy new 1.5tb disk)
(17:43:07) anth_x: hey, neat!
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(17:43:42) mjl-: pieces have started falling in place a bit
(17:44:01) mjl-: that is, i've also gained some experience reading those half-assed marvell docs...
(17:44:15) mjl-: and uboot & linux source
(17:47:12) anth_x: mjl-: same question i just asked muzgo in #plan9: could you describe your workflow for me?
(17:47:24) anth_x: that is, you're working on inferno stuff and publishing hg repos. how do you do that?
(17:47:39) mjl-: ah
(17:47:52) mjl-: it's different for this sheevaplug code and for the pure-limbo projects btw
(17:48:13) mjl-: for the limbo projects:
(17:48:22) mjl-: develop on hosted inferno on openbsd
(17:48:27) mjl-: i use the hg from openbsd (python)
(17:48:42) mjl-: than i push to my linux server (www.ueber.net)
(17:49:29) mjl-: that server runs my inferno httpd and an hgfs for each repository.  an scgid with hgweb is also running for the web frontend at http://www.ueber.net/code/
(17:50:09) mjl-: so after i push the changes, any subsequent accesses to the hgfs'en will show the latest code in the hg repo's (hgfs stats the main repo index)
(17:50:27) mjl-: is that (part of) what you wanted to know? :)
(17:51:27) anth_x: yes, very good.
(17:52:20) anth_x: and... are you happy with that? if you were starting over, would you do anything differently?
(17:52:35) mjl-: i'm quite happy with it
(17:53:04) mjl-: and i don't see a way that is much simpler/more convenient
(17:53:37) powerman: mjl-: where you write code? acme/inferno or vim/host os or something else?
(17:54:00) powerman: i mean, limbo code, of course
(17:54:10) mjl-: that is, hg is not perfect, but many other schemes aren't either.  if i ever finish the code for writing & pushing hg repo's in limbo, it would be even more convenient
(17:54:17) mjl-: powerman-asdf: vim on host
(17:54:37) mjl-: on plan 9 i would use acme, but i don't have that running a lot lately
(17:55:24) powerman: yeah, me too vim on host. I still unable to understand acme to some minimal point where it become more attractive for me than vim :(
(17:55:35) C-Keen: you could even run acme on host!
(17:55:41) mjl-: C-Keen: good point
(17:55:42) mjl-: powerman-asdf: same here
(17:56:11) anth_x: that's so weird to me. mouse chording alone makes acme more attractive than most anything else in my mind.
(17:56:28) mjl-: though i find acme fine on plan 9.  the inferno version is a little bit awkward somehow.  oh, i think the plumber may have something to do with it.  plus the window in window...
(17:56:59) C-Keen: mjl-: you can start acme without wm
(17:57:00) mjl-: anth_x: i do still like being able to keep my hands on keyboard
(17:58:09) mjl-: i did make some changes to inferno's acme to do more with keyboard
(17:58:33) anth_x: mjl-: ron did smacme, adding more keyboard stuff. not sure how much.
(17:58:39) mjl-: some ctrl-... commands to switch cursor to tag, and select, and execute selection as if b2 or b3 was pressed
(17:58:45) anth_x: one more hg question.
(17:58:54) mjl-: perhaps i should put it out as flacme
(17:59:32) anth_x: if i have hgfs reading a repo and change the repo underfoot (via file system operations like cp/mv/whatever or via more "native" hg operations), will hgfs cope?
(17:59:42) C-Keen: mjl-: that's nice when working on a netbook
(18:00:15) mjl-: anth_x: for the normal hg operations it definately will
(18:00:24) mjl-: i'm not 100% sure on the others
(18:00:38) mjl-: in theory, most hg operations are append-only to the .i & .d files
(18:00:46) mjl-: so hgfs does cache some data
(18:01:06) mjl-: but for some operations the .i is rewritten, and hgfs does cope with that
(18:01:28) anth_x: k. but hg ops should be safe.
(18:01:50) mjl-: so if you copy unrelated .i & .d files to an existing repo that hgfs is running on, you might get in trouble.  if the files are related, you shouldn't be in trouble
(18:02:23) mjl-: and it would be best to copy modified/new .d files first, then .i files, with manifest.i and changelog.i last
(18:02:50) anth_x: i think i can constrain myself to just use hg ops.
(18:03:18) anth_x: muzgo confirmed for me that the plan9 hg can push to fs-based clones (just not http)
(18:03:20) mjl-: ok :)
(18:03:34) mjl-: yes
(18:03:40) mjl-: beware that it is dogslow though
(18:03:49) mjl-: well, on high-latency link at least
(18:04:00) anth_x: that's okay, so's my programming. :-)
(18:04:06) mjl-: :P
(18:04:47) mjl-: the wire protocol is more efficient (used in ssh), and should work over a pipe.  in case you do need something faster in the future.
(18:06:13) anth_x: hrm. trying it over a pipe could be interesting. nice thought.
(18:07:31) powerman: anth_x: mouse chording win only if you work in some way and not another way. for example, mouse with the wheel instead of 3rd button isn't really good in chording (moreover, wheel tend to become broken because it doesn't designed for high use as a button, so acme is damaging your hardware :)); people which prefer keyboard way doesn't like to touch mouse at all (with nearly only exception for web browser) and "chording" with keyboard are at least not slower than with mouse (most will argue keyboard is faster, actually);
(18:07:31) powerman: and last one thing. if you work with many files at once, often switch between them, etc. - acme win. but I usually setup my work flow to have to work with just one file 98% of time, and I prefer to have this file content use all space on my monitor, without any other information (which tend to only distract me from the work)... this mean I don't need any "windows" on screen - neither acme's one nor any other, and only navigation I really need is navigation inside single file (vim has a lot of cool keyboard shortcuts for this).
(18:07:31) powerman: and really last one. syntax highlight. sorry, but looks like I'm too stupid to live without it.
(18:09:23) anth_x: powerman-asdf: understood. i'm no zealot (although maybe something of an evangelist).
(18:09:34) anth_x: my experience with wheels has been very different from yours, though.
(18:09:58) anth_x: i've been using a mouse with a wheel for years - that is, the same exact mouse - without problems.
(18:10:22) anth_x: ergonomically, i do wish the place to rest my finger were a bit wider, but it's not too bad there.
(18:10:32) anth_x: and the mouse adds enough that it's worth it.
(18:11:46) powerman: anth_x: think "small mouse". it's sometimes hard to find a button... and if you need to find several buttons at once, and press them in some order... oh, man, it's crazy :D
(18:12:02) anth_x: sure, but that's just a bad mouse.
(18:12:21) anth_x: you can get crappy keyboards, too.
(18:12:34) anth_x: (netbooks!)
(18:15:35) powerman: ergonomically (in sense ease to use for your hand and no tunnel syndrome) it's a good mouse, but not for acme. anyway, that point isn't really important, I include it mostly for fun - if you really love acme you can either buy mouse suitable for it, and buy new each time your wheel become broken again - it's cheap enough
(18:18:41) powerman: anth_x: btw, to be honest, is acme lack syntax highlight because nobody think about using different colors inside single window and it's now hard to implement because of acme architecture (sort of troubles implementing shell history using up/down keys), or you really think this sort of feature was dropped because it's considered harmful?
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(18:29:39) anth_x: i know the Labs folks dislike syntax highlighting. i kinda doubt preventing it was a design motivation.
(18:29:55) anth_x: i'm sure it didn't cause them any hesitation, though.
(18:30:50) anth_x: for myself, matching (), '', &c gets me pretty much everything i want from syntax highlighting.
(18:31:15) anth_x: i've only ever found it useful when first reading a large new block of someone else's code.
(18:31:44) anth_x: and even there, other techniques have proven more useful for me (plumbing and tags, in particular)
(18:32:51) powerman: anth_x: i don't really know acme internals, but I know there special acme applications/plugins, which access acme window contents using acme's file server, and which implement lots of acme features. if window content will contain not just plain text, but also some information about colors, this can make these acme tools overcomplicated. and this may be the main reason for absence of syntax highlight.
(18:33:55) anth_x: i think you're right about the effect, but i strongly doubt syntax highlighting went into the decision one way or another.
(18:34:07) anth_x: making acme windows just text makes them very simple.
(18:34:23) anth_x: easier to write, easier to understand the code, easier for external applications to deal with.
(18:34:57) anth_x: it's just sort of coincidental that doing it that way prevents syntax highlighting.
(18:35:23) anth_x: it prevents sticking bold and italics in man pages, which i'd like a lot more (and bet the Labs guys would, too).
(18:37:14) powerman: mjl-: there vim syntax highlight for limbo on your site, but it's very basic one. I've improved version, if you like to highlight more :) http://powerman.name/download/vim/syntax/limbo.vim
(18:38:21) mjl-: powerman-asdf: thanks, i'll have a look
(18:38:42) mjl-: has it been online for some time?  i think i've seen another vim highlighting file for limbo before
(18:39:55) powerman: yep
(18:43:05) powerman: I've seen at least one more version, in addition to ours, I think.
(18:43:32) mjl-: just loaded it
(18:43:44) mjl-: i think i somewhat like the types being highlighted
(18:43:46) mjl-: eg "list of string"
(18:44:04) mjl-: the -> and .'s would need more time to get used to
(18:44:31) mjl-: somehow the red next to gray/white text is a bit strange
(18:44:42) mjl-: though i think it's mostly because i'm used to my current style :)
(18:46:03) powerman: types, -> and . are highlighed on my screen. probably you need to setup colors for vim's highligh types.
(18:46:16) powerman: colors are set independently from syntax file
(18:46:39) mjl-: ah, that would explain it
(18:48:20) uriel: this might be an interesting platform for inferno: http://www.linuxfordevices.com/c/a/News/Qi-Hardware-Ben-NanoNote/
(18:49:28) anth_x: i'm a bit skeptical that this particular device is going to end up being interesting for much of anything.
(18:49:47) anth_x: the screen is tiny, even just compared to the size of the enclosure.
(18:50:12) anth_x: the difference between 3" and 4.5" (which they could still fit easily) is huge.
(18:51:19) mjl-: uriel: that's what blstuart is going to do, right? :)
(18:51:24) mjl-: if i read 9fans correctly
(18:51:28) mjl-: they claim the hardware is open
(18:51:33) anth_x: if it at least had wifi built in i'd be a lot more interested.
(18:51:41) anth_x: mjl-: yup.
(18:51:55) mjl-: well, component layout.  but are there docs for the cpu and controllers?
(18:51:59) mjl-: i.e. the software side
(18:52:11) mjl-: i almost always have trouble finding those docs for such devices..
(18:52:50) mjl-: except for perhaps the beagleboard (with arm docs and omap docs.  freescale i.mx seems to have a lot of docs too.  only the gpu-parts remain secret for those)
(18:53:59) anth_x: when i saw the name of the designer, i was hoping they were related to pixel qi (the folks commercializing the display from the xo), but nope.
(18:54:12) mjl-: i had the same association
(18:56:03) EthanG: you know what I wonder why doesn't come up here? personal area networks with a tiny wifi terminal with a CPU server in a bag or backpack
(18:58:40) uriel: mjl-: no idea, I don't read 9fans ;P
(18:58:46) mjl-: haha
(18:58:48) mjl-: ok
(18:58:59) uriel: (ok, not frequently anyway, I'm still a recovering 9fan-holic)
(18:59:09) mjl-: just hope blstuart has time soon enough
(18:59:28) mjl-: EthanG: i don't know what you envision exactly
(18:59:33) mjl-: personal area network?
(18:59:49) mjl-: wifi terminal?  like the bitsy?
(18:59:59) mjl-: or nintendo ds
(19:00:03) EthanG: yeah
(19:00:08) EthanG: I forgot the DS
(19:00:25) mjl-: i guess you would actually have to use those devices.
(19:00:28) mjl-: which is not the fun part
(19:00:33) mjl-: writing the code to do something is
(19:01:35) EthanG: :]
(19:02:45) EthanG: personal area network is not my term, by the way. It's from the wearble computing crowd
(19:03:33) mjl-: i think in general the problem is that those devices don't come with docs & specs
(19:03:40) mjl-: so you cannot write drivers for them
(19:04:27) mjl-: it's one of the reasons i dislike wifi.  the open source drivers still sometimes have quircks.  e.g. on openbsd my intel wifi stops working after suspend & resume.
(19:05:25) EthanG: ya :/
(19:06:21) EthanG: I wonder if that slower wireless networking standard is fast enough for terminal<->cpu. There's one designed specificallyfor personal area networks
(19:13:06) anth_x: the zigbee/802.15 stuff?
(19:14:18) anth_x: sorry, 802.15.4 (802.15.1 being bluetooth)
(19:14:26) mjl-: 15.4 is zigbee?
(19:14:47) ***EthanG googles... "Yeah, I think that must be it. "very low data rate" doesn't sound good"
(19:15:08) anth_x: well, technically zigbee is 802.15.4 plus some policy, in the same way wimax is 802.16+policy and wifi is 802.11+(very thin) policy.
(19:15:37) mjl-: ok
(19:15:37) EthanG: ah lol
(19:15:51) mjl-: anth_x: do you have any insights about zigbee?
(19:16:18) mjl-: i only know the name.  no idea who uses it for what, and if you can get devices for it cheaply & with docs.
(19:16:49) anth_x: i have one of these kits: http://www.sunspotworld.com/
(19:16:53) anth_x: they use zigbee.
(19:17:14) anth_x: it's certainly fine for stuff like that. i've seen it on a handful of other devices, but it's certainly not taken off.
(19:17:26) anth_x: it seems too close to bluetooth, i think.
(19:18:15) anth_x: i think it only ends up making sense for things like sensor networks, where your radio dominates your power consumption.
(19:18:28) EthanG: I see
(19:18:40) anth_x: in anything with a real cpu, the difference between zigbee and bluetooth is just going to get swamped out, and bluetooth's utility is much higher.
(19:19:00) EthanG: ahh
(19:19:05) mjl-: i've never felt comfortable with bluetooth either
(19:19:14) anth_x: that's all just my opinion, of course. don't let that stop you from poking around with it if you're interested!
(19:19:22) mjl-: just seems like a big stack to get a wireless headset...
(19:19:29) anth_x: i really dislike bluetooth's implementation, but it's a useful thing to have.
(19:19:59) anth_x: yeah, but you also get keyboards, mice, cameras, whatever. it's really wireless usb.
(19:23:29) anth_x: for something like the sunspot, i'd love to get a 9p interface to the devices, leaving driving the radio to whatever the vendor provides.
(19:24:43) anth_x: (if only dealing with java wasn't such a PITA)
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(19:30:14) mjl-: :)
(19:30:48) mjl-: i've also been wondering about common availability of i2c, spi devices
(19:31:05) mjl-: since the sheevaplug has controllers for that (no connectors though.  but openrd does)
(19:31:21) anth_x: zero experience there, sorry
(19:47:22) anth_x: zigbee is 250kb/s on the high end. that's not actually too bad.
(19:48:46) anth_x: my problem with the "wearable computer" stuff is that, even in an idealized world, it's hard to see the benefits (over having a good device in my pocket that i need to take out once in a while to work with) outweighing the costs.
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(20:18:06) EthanG: I could do with one with a HUD for direction finding, lol
(20:18:53) anth: there'd be some utility to it, sure. but have you seen the iPhone "augmented reality" stuff? the HUD wouldn't buy you much over that.
(20:20:15) EthanG: I haven't, but I can guess, and I was about to say a pocket device is really good enough. The only area where it might not be is that it's heavy, so reading something on it can be a bit of a pain
(20:29:37) anth: EthanG: a few examples:
(20:29:40) anth: http://mashable.com/2009/12/05/augmented-reality-iphone/
(20:30:00) anth: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2uH-jrsSxs (audio sucks)
(20:30:07) EthanG: cheers
(20:30:18) anth: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHEcg6FyYUo (neat, if jittery)
(20:30:34) anth: they're young, but they've very nearly here.
(20:31:26) EthanG: I see, good stuff
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(20:35:20) EthanG: oh that tube one's good
(20:35:31) EthanG: a good app
(20:38:07) EthanG: the monocle looks pretty great too
(20:40:46) powerman: what about adding rsc's re2 library to inferno (probably, as driver for better performance)? it looks much more useful than regexp(6)
(20:54:35) anth: isn't re2 c++?
(20:54:59) anth: and (serious question, i've not looked closely) what does re2 do that regexp(6) doesn't?
(21:04:01) powerman: anth: it's ease to compare: http://code.google.com/p/re2/wiki/Syntax
(21:04:26) powerman: regexp(6) does nearly nothing. re2 does nearly everything. that's in a nutshell.
(21:23:15) anth_x: wow, i didn't realize re2 was as extensive as it is. i guess i'm a bit surprised.
(21:25:59) anth_x: but... do we really want bell escapes in inferno? all those perl character classes?
(21:27:00) anth_x: some of the repetition stuff can make things clearer, but even when reading perl i hate seeing \d instead of [0-9].
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(21:29:26) mjl-: i do hate how "\d+" is to be written as "[0-9][0-9]*"
(21:29:34) powerman: :)
(21:30:04) powerman: that's why it's good to have both in regexp lib
(21:37:58) anth_x: eh. that way lies perl.
(21:38:12) powerman: hmm. you catch me. :)
(21:40:17) powerman: perl is really good in text parsing and processing. better than anything I know. everything else in perl may be bad or arguable, but text things are very good. and sometimes you just need to parse some text, filter it, format and output. cgi is good example. data mining is another.
(21:41:26) mjl-: true
(21:41:29) anth_x: i use awk for those tasks. the syntax is rougher in spots (but nicer in others), but (and) it's less tempting to turn things into programs that do much more than the data processing.
(21:41:40) mjl-: my tool of choice for text processing is python
(21:41:57) anth_x: really? interesting.
(21:42:00) mjl-: plus python also works for me for slightly larger programs (say up to 1000 lines)
(21:42:05) powerman: actually, python/perl - doesn't matter much because of pcre
(21:43:11) EthanG: I like python for text proc. I haven't learned awk yet tho, and ya, PCRE >_>
(21:43:53) mjl-: i don't get to use awk enough to remember the language :)
(21:48:46) mjl-: i'm wondering about partitions on disks
(21:48:49) mjl-: related to sdio
(21:48:56) mjl-: because i've written a devsdio.c
(21:49:12) mjl-: that exports a big data file, for the sd card
(21:49:28) mjl-: i should probably modify the driver so it hooks into devsd.c
(21:49:53) mjl-: which will read a partition table and make the parts available
(21:50:05) mjl-: but i was wondering where there is no devpart.c or something
(21:50:26) mjl-: which can chuck up a file into multiple files
(21:51:10) mjl-: i.e. it would only translate offsets for reads/writes and make sure it wouldn't write outside the allowed ranges
(21:51:15) mjl-: chunk*
(21:52:26) mjl-: seems better than writing a userspace styx server  for all the reads/writes to get serialized in to & out of
(21:52:38) mjl-: i was also a bit concerned with hotplug
(21:52:53) mjl-: it would apply for sata too.  not sure if devsd.c can cope with that
(21:53:03) mjl-: though of course i should investigate, not guess
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(22:40:06) mjl-: hmm, another thing
(22:40:14) mjl-: something the trim command for sd cards
(22:40:36) mjl-: sd card performance goes down when they fill up
(22:54:36) powerman: mjl-: back to "errors" and possibility of "out of memory" on sys->file2chan...
(22:54:47) powerman: what about limbo operators, like alt and spawn?
(22:55:02) powerman: they ain't a functions, so we can't check return value
(22:55:38) mjl-: good point
(22:55:43) mjl-: i think they can also cause errors
(22:55:46) powerman: but they require some system calls, allocate some resources (I suppose spawn require some more memory :))
(22:55:55) mjl-: you can even catch them as exception
(22:56:05) powerman: hmm. good point.
(22:56:15) powerman: ok then
(22:56:16) mjl-: so in practice, out of memory with crash the program
(22:56:45) mjl-: in c code in inferno you can call smalloc(), which will block when out of memory, retrying until it succeeds
(22:57:01) mjl-: though if there really isn't going to be any more memory, you'll get stuck
(23:12:55) mjl-: oh, sd cards do have an erase command
(23:16:07) mjl-: hehe, the "no writes" physical switch on sd cards doesn't do anything to the card.  the card doesn't know.  the host controller gets the signal that the card should be treated read-only
(23:42:35) EthanG: ya :}
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(21:57:18) anth_x is now known as anothy
(22:04:06) idr0 [~idr0@e179154126.adsl.alicedsl.de] entered the room.
(22:07:50) anothy is now known as anth_x
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(01:22:34) The account has disconnected and you are no longer in this chat. You will be automatically rejoined in the chat when the account reconnects.