Conversation with #inferno at Fri Nov  2 18:16:44 2012 on powerman-asdf@irc.freenode.net (irc)
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(00:26:21) Anarkon: Hello?
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(02:19:05) bussiere: hi
(02:19:26) bussiere: has someone a good tutorial about inferno installation on debian / ubuntu ?
(02:20:33) leetspete: bussiere: I've done it on Debian.
(02:20:53) leetspete: http://www.vitanuova.com/inferno/downloads.html has a list of the packages you need to compile:  libxext-dev, libxpm-dev, and x11proto-xext-dev
(02:21:08) leetspete: Also build-essential.
(02:21:32) bussiere: i've done it
(02:21:37) leetspete: Cool.
(02:21:43) bussiere: but when i run emu
(02:21:49) bussiere: i've got this :
(02:24:21) bussiere: https://gist.github.com/4005224
(02:26:07) leetspete: bussiere: "./emu" in there is build instructions.
(02:26:18) leetspete: Have you built mk and done 'mk install' from the top level?
(02:26:44) bussiere: i've made
(02:26:49) bussiere: makemk.sh
(02:26:53) bussiere: but that's all
(02:26:56) leetspete: Okay.
(02:27:09) bussiere: so i need to make mk install ?
(02:27:19) leetspete: Yep:  cd /usr/inferno; mk install
(02:27:24) leetspete: After that, the emu binary will be in /usr/inferno/Linux/386/bin/emu.
(02:28:38) bussiere: mk install doesnt work
(02:29:09) leetspete: Ah, forgot; you'll have to add mk to your path.
(02:29:11) bussiere: i have a mk in /usr/inferno/linux/386/bin
(02:29:34) leetspete: export PATH="/usr/inferno/Linux/386/bin:$PATH" # If you're using bash.
(02:31:41) bussiere: yep i'am doing it
(02:32:12) bussiere: dam
(02:32:27) bussiere: i'am on a x86-64
(02:32:29) bussiere: >.>
(02:32:46) leetspete: Yep, it requires a 32-bit build.  I think that's ia32-libs on Debian.
(02:32:50) leetspete: Something like that.
(02:33:43) bussiere: usr/bin/ld: i386:x86-64 architecture of input file `/usr/inferno/Linux/386/lib/libbio.a(bgetc.o)' is incompatible with i386 output
(02:34:45) bussiere: yep i'am installing the libs
(02:34:46) bussiere: thanks
(02:34:54) leetspete: Cool.
(02:40:43) bussiere: still incompatile dam
(02:53:10) leetspete: Hm...
(02:54:15) leetspete: You could try mk nuke, then making sure that the mkfile for Linux-386 has -m32 for the CC line.
(02:55:02) leetspete: Worst-case, I'm happy to provide a tarball for my Linux/386 directory.  :)
(02:55:11) bussiere: thnaks
(02:57:42) bussiere: what do you call the mkfile ?
(02:57:50) bussiere: beacause in mkfile there is no cc line
(02:59:50) leetspete: ./mkfiles/mkfile-Linux-386 has the relevant to Linux bits, provided you've set SYSHOST and OBJTYPE in ./mkconfig.
(03:00:01) bussiere: seems to worrk after an mk nuke
(03:09:56) bussiere: i will continue tomorow problem of cline here
(03:09:59) bussiere: clone
(03:19:57) leetspete: Cool!
(03:22:05) bussiere: cannot find -lXext
(03:22:07) bussiere: dam
(03:43:27) leetspete: 32-bit libXext installed?
(03:47:14) bussiere: i'am on it
(03:47:18) bussiere: it seems to works
(03:47:56) bussiere: how to run it after that ?
(03:48:46) bussiere: i've got a segmentation fault
(03:48:52) leetspete: If your path is the same, emu ought to work.
(03:48:58) bussiere: running ./emu
(03:49:01) bussiere: >.>
(03:49:30) leetspete: If your path is still set as above, then it ought to work if you do "emu".  
(03:49:47) leetspete: "./" shouldn't be necessary...
(03:50:22) bussiere: yep
(03:50:32) bussiere: but still segmentation fault
(03:50:34) leetspete: Also, the VM and its JIT especially are a bit sensitive to optimization; it'll segfault if you -O3'd it or anything.
(03:53:38) bussiere: i make no optimisation :/
(03:56:01) bussiere: i will try to sleep
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(13:12:14) doublec: I'm sure everyone's seen this, but just in case: http://research.swtch.com/acme
(13:12:21) doublec: a great screencast showing off acme
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(15:17:47) doublec: does plumber work within acme? If I button-3 click "os(1)" in an acme window, the main page doesn't appear like it does in the video above.
(15:17:56) doublec: if I do it within a shell (outside of acme) it does work
(15:18:04) doublec: so plumber seems to be working
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(16:55:47) bussiere: if i may ask how to join the miling list please ?
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(03:04:19) doublec: my phone carrier doesn't allow incoming connections to the device. If I want to expose services from inferno on the phone to another machine that can't receive cannections, can I proxy through a third machine somehow?
(03:33:57) powerman-asdf: doublec: if you export /net on that third machine, then you can mount it on your phone
(03:34:30) powerman-asdf: and since this point you can accept incoming connections on phone
(03:50:51) doublec: ok, thanks!
(03:53:04) doublec: I'm attempting to access the phone features from my desktop to send sms messages, etc
(03:54:18) doublec: the other approach I could try is use ssh to forward needed ports. I'm not sure if my carrier blocks the ports inferno uses for outgoing traffic yet.
(04:44:59) doublec: from my nat'd desktop to my remote machine I can mount remotes /net fine. But from the mobile device I get a "Connection timed out". I guess some filtering is going on.
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(05:06:32) doublec: if I setup a tunnel from my phone and connect to the local port for that tunnel I can succesfully mount /net
(05:06:42) doublec: and then from my desktop, mount /phone. nice.
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(12:45:59) Gagarin: FYI, The latest code fails to compile http://pastebin.com/Mje998pb 
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(13:21:59) powerman-asdf: Gagarin: FYI, the right place to post this is http://code.google.com/p/inferno-os/issues/list
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(17:20:00) r_m_r: hi all! i'd like to know if someone is using inferno os at work... i want to try using inferno os (running on a host) for a distributed client-server application...
(17:47:51) powerman-asdf: r_m_r: I'm using it. For distributed services.
(17:48:46) powerman-asdf: works ok in production for several years
(17:49:12) r_m_r: powerman-asdf: thanks for the info.
(17:51:40) r_m_r: powerman-asdf: did you have to port any apps/libraries or did you just use the apps/libraries that came with inferno?
(17:52:45) powerman-asdf: r_m_r: here is libs/apps I've added: http://code.google.com/u/115721750737590505257/
(17:54:56) r_m_r: powerman-asdf: great! will definitely have a look at it...
(17:56:01) powerman-asdf: I've to add driver to link c++ re2 library to get fast and feature rich regexp; implement another driver in C to get fast json tokenizer; other libs/apps are in limbo, mostly to get good enough failure recovery level (regmonitor, retrymount, watchdog) and better devel enviroment (tests and logs)
(18:02:02) r_m_r: powerman-asdf: ok. i can see that you are using matrixssl library with a client cert patch. how does it compare to polarssl ?
(18:04:52) powerman-asdf: r_m_r: no idea, never hear about polarssl
(18:10:41) r_m_r: powerman-asdf: ok, no problem. i came across polarssl library as it was used in the mongrel2 http web server
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(22:06:50) leetspete: doublec: Just read your new post.  It's awesome.
(22:07:50) jbrhee: hearty second
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(22:17:56) leetspete: Gagarin: I was able to build the latest; looking over your paste, I think it might be a config problem.  It seems your root and the directory you're building in are different.
(22:18:30) leetspete: Unless you've got some symlink situation going.
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(22:24:25) Gagarin: It seems that i broke my config file a line earlier.
(22:25:42) Gagarin: Is there a "planet" blog aggregator for inferno? If no, is anybody interested in one?
(22:26:06) leetspete: I don't know of one, but I'd definitely be interested.
(22:27:21) leetspete: The mailing list being a bit unreliable and information sometimes being hard to find sometimes (Dante's book *and* apparently an awful video game, and search engines deciding that I might also mean to search for "hell"), that would be awesome.
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(23:16:51) Gagarin: Ok, here is how a reed aggregator could look like: http://h3716529.hosting.vhtec.de/output/ But well, the reason why i was missing this was because i didn't know any active blogs. It wouldn't make much sense with just 2 blogs, i guess quite a lot of you are blogging about inferno, please tell me the names of your blogs, it's incredible hard to find 
(23:18:18) Gagarin: I think it's bit of a problem that i'm publishing other peoples content, it should be cut only show a teaser and a read more link
(23:24:27) leetspete: Gagarin: I don't know of many.  At least doublec, powerman-asdf, Caerwyn (http://code.google.com/p/inferno-lab/wiki/Index), and me.
(23:27:00) Gagarin: Inferno Lab is awesome, but unfourtantly dead since quite a while. What's the name of your blog?
(23:27:21) Gagarin: *inferno programmers notebook
(23:27:26) leetspete: Gagarin: debu.gs; you've got it in your aggregator already. :)
(23:30:08) Gagarin: Ah, so it seems there are 2 active blogs about inferno, so a aggregator does not make much sense. btw, i like your blog.
(23:30:53) Gagarin: maybe a link to these on the google project page would still help
(23:35:39) leetspete: Thanks!
(23:36:34) leetspete: You could add the feed from the mailing list.  I believe gmane provides RSS.
(23:39:12) Gagarin: I don't think aggregating a mailing list makes much sense.
(23:49:22) leetspete: I suppose it doesn't.  Sorry, got distracted searching for "inferno", fell into a hole about DRM in Diablo 3.
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(00:04:17) Gagarin: that's what i was going to fix. But as long as there is no content on the internet about inferno that is not in my bookmark list i should stop worrying about that and proably better create content myself. But...
(00:46:00) doublec: thanks leetspete!
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(13:01:19) powerman-asdf: Gagarin: I'm writing about Inferno mostly in Russian.
(13:01:43) powerman-asdf: All articles probably can be find by tag "inferno": http://habrahabr.ru/search/?q=%5Binferno%5D&target_type=posts
(13:02:09) powerman-asdf: Also there is manual catalog of all articles with descriptions: http://habrahabr.ru/post/145993/
(14:53:16) Gagarin: thanks for the link. No offense, but I'm not sure if it makes sense to aggregate blogs with different languages on one page.
(15:43:15) Gagarin: Does limbo support references to functions? could this work? http://pastebin.com/8FCr3zTi The error message does not sound very promissing: 'func''s type is illegal.
(15:46:58) Gagarin: but since there a no type classes somthing like map would be hart to implement anyway...
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(16:02:34) doublec: the docs suggest references to functions should work
(16:02:50) doublec: http://doc.cat-v.org/inferno/4th_edition/limbo_language/limbo shows f:  ref fn(a: array of string): int;
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(16:04:56) powerman-asdf: doublec: he left
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(16:06:04) doublec: oh. I missed that, thanks.
(16:06:05) powerman-asdf: Gagarin: this works: http://pastebin.com/199inACL
(16:06:25) doublec: I have joins and parts turned off
(16:07:11) powerman-asdf: I think your problem may be either with print's specifics (variable args), or, most likely, with module handler related issue
(16:07:46) powerman-asdf: I think if you load same module several times into different handlers, address of anyhandler->print will be the same
(16:08:04) powerman-asdf: because all handlers share same implementation for functions
(16:08:24) powerman-asdf: but to call it you still need some handler
(16:12:03) powerman-asdf: no, looks like that's not because of absent handler
(16:12:04) powerman-asdf: http://pastebin.com/ityhZKSB
(16:12:11) powerman-asdf: sys->millisec works just fine
(16:14:00) powerman-asdf: then it's probably ",*" variable args type specification. I don't think it's legal in limbo and probably used only for systems modules like sys
(16:15:24) Gagarin: yes, seems to work http://pastebin.com/8uj6sgcd
(16:16:13) Gagarin: on the other hand due to the nature of types in limbo it's proably not possible to write functional style code. Not to speak of a anonymous functions.
(16:16:31) Gagarin: * the lack of syntax for anonymous functions
(16:23:30) doublec: I'd feel lost programming without anonymous functions
(16:23:42) doublec: I should delve into limbo and educate myself
(16:24:36) Aram: I never missed anonymous functions, although I use them in Go.
(16:24:55) Aram: s/,/in C,/
(16:25:07) Aram: different languages, different styles of doing things.
(16:27:27) doublec: yeah, I do a bunch of C++ programming and survive without them.
(16:27:51) Gagarin: i have to do stuff in java and miss them
(16:36:14) powerman-asdf: Limbo miss a lot of features from modern programming languages, but… this makes Limbo very simple.
(16:41:18) Gagarin: Na, not worse than C. Pretty much  like C, but strongly typed.
(16:41:35) Gagarin: but c is not modern either...
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(16:48:53) powerman-asdf: Some time ago I've learned Haskell (just for fun, I don't planned to use it). Anyway, while most of language is very simple and elegant, I was surprised how complicated it become when trying to implement some trivial (for other languages) things like "state". Just check "The State monad" under http://learnyouahaskell.com/for-a-few-monads-more#state
(16:51:22) powerman-asdf: I have spend about a hour until I completely understand what, when and how happens in these 6 lines of code, how it works. All this time, and many hours after that :) I thank God for Limbo's simplicity.
(16:59:48) powerman-asdf: Joel Spolsky mention two types of programmers - who understood (C-) pointers and who doesn't. I never really believe second type really exists and work as successful programmers. But while learning that "state monad" I feel myself similar to programmers who doesn't understood basic things like pointers.
(17:04:36) powerman-asdf: I think most of such modern features are overcomplicate things. They make it easier for programmer to express ideas in more natural for subject area way, resulting in more concise code… but as same time they make much more complicated to understand that exactly happens while executing this code, which mean harder to debug and fix issues. (Good example is operator overloading feature.)
(17:07:54) Aram: they optimize writability at the expense of readability and understanding.
(17:08:57) powerman-asdf: yes. and this isn't good idea, because we spend much more time to read and change code than for writing first version
(17:09:02) Aram: yes.
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(20:34:56) leetspete: fosap: There is a generic map for lists lists actually:  http://man.cat-v.org/inferno/2/lists
(20:39:04) fosap: Do i understand appl/lib/lists.b that there are typeclasses?
(20:40:29) leetspete: Sort of; I forget the term for them, but it is a generic type.  I don't think it made it into most of the docs, since it is a somewhat later addition to the language.
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(20:54:59) leetspete: powerman-asdf: I agree on Haskell.  Some things were impressively simple (fibonacci as lazily evaluated infinite list), and then when I tried to write anything real, it was more frustrating than any language I've ever tried.
(20:55:08) leetspete: Too much time fighting the compiler.
(20:56:02) leetspete: I had better luck with OCaml and K.
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(21:12:16) vsrinivas: 3/qin 11
(21:12:23) fosap: leetspete: I agree. It was awesome in the beginning (especially the syntax) but if i ever want to do something that actually works i use lisp.
(21:15:05) fosap: I once tried to create a website in haskell, but the acid-state _tuturial_ required more knowlege than the functional programming lecture, that was in haskell, tought me. Pretty academic stuff IMO. 
(21:19:00) leetspete: haha
(21:21:26) leetspete: Yeah, I wanted to try out their automatic threading stuff a few years back.  The things I try out parallel processing for are usually ray tracing, factoring numbers, or md5sum cracking, since they seem to lend themselves somewhat well to it.
(21:24:00) leetspete: It took me more code to turn a string into an md5 hex string than it would have to just have some monad call the shell.  A few pages, if I recall correctly, of their MD5 library giving me tuples of Word8 or Int8 or something, which I had to turn into Word128, then into an integer, then sprintf.  It was a few pages of code, as I recall.
(21:29:17) leetspete: Possibly more code than just implementing an MD5 that returned what I wanted.
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(23:19:49) fosap: I created a shell utility, but i can't run it. the shell says: sh: 280 "Command":module not loaded, but i started with implement Command; as usual. What could be wrong?
(23:33:53) powerman-asdf: fosap: no idea. show the code and the command which you run to get this error
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(23:38:02) fosap: http://pastebin.com/QK8bLWUF
(23:39:02) fosap: ugly and not finished, but somehow it should run imo
(23:45:43) Aram: the windows port can only be compiled by visual c, right, not gcc?
(23:53:22) powerman-asdf: Aram: yeah, last time I've installed it on windows I've used https://www.microsoft.com/visualstudio/en-us/products/2010-editions/visual-cpp-express
(23:53:38) Aram: I don't want to install gigabytes of crap
(23:53:44) Aram: I'll probably just edit the mkfile
(23:55:01) powerman-asdf: Aram: actually I've experimented with two different ways to get compiler on windows
(23:55:39) powerman-asdf: second was to get .NET 4 from http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=187668 plus SDK 7.1 from https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=8442
(23:56:13) powerman-asdf: not sure which one have less gigabytes of crap
(23:56:46) Aram: yeah, I know about the various ways you could get C tools on windows. they vary in the degree of suckiness, but they all suck.
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(23:57:50) powerman-asdf: fosap: yeah, I see this error
(23:57:56) powerman-asdf: now I recognize it
(23:58:11) powerman-asdf: ; ./limbodoc
(23:58:11) powerman-asdf: [Command] Broken: "module not loaded"
(23:58:11) powerman-asdf: sh: 69 "Command":module not loaded
(23:59:23) powerman-asdf: this just mean your application ("Command" - it named in this way because you used 'implement Command;' instead of your custom module name) raised error "module not loaded", i.e. tried to access some module's handle before doing 'load'
(23:59:46) powerman-asdf: i.e. it doesn't mean module "Command" not loaded, it's about some other module :)
(00:01:43) fosap: ah... i thought it was about a incorrect signature of init or something like this. Idk why i always call my modules command... i guess because it says so in the doc.. like cisco routers always have the password "cisco".
(00:01:51) powerman-asdf: fosap: looking at few first lines of init() I suppose it's bufio not loaded
(00:03:27) fosap: yes, stupid me.
(00:03:33) fosap: thx
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(00:10:26) powerman-asdf: fosap: btw, about bufio, I found it performance not acceptable for real tasks, and created easier to use and much faster alternative
(00:10:29) powerman-asdf: http://powerman.name/Inferno/man/2/iobuf.html
(00:10:35) powerman-asdf: http://code.google.com/p/inferno-contrib-iobuf/
(00:10:43) powerman-asdf: so you may wanna give it a try :)
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(01:25:16) fosap: oh, that wonderfull, but i guess for this speed does really not matter. Will give it a try though.
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(04:08:42) doublec: nice to see reddit interested in inferno. that post of mine about sharing phone resources that someone submitted to /r/programming has got a good number of upvotes.
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